The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

I call the Senedd to order. A very good afternoon to you all. Before you begin, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26,75, that the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill was given Royal Assent on 6 June 2023.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Luke Fletcher.

Research and Innovation

Luke Fletcher AS: 1. What support does the Welsh Government provide for research and innovation? OQ59673

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, support available for research and innovation includes £10 million to strengthen our scientific research base, £30 million announced last week to improve innovation, so that Welsh organisations can grow, improve health and well-being, and help address our climate and nature emergencies. And all this is in addition to quality-related research funding for universities.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, First Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: According to UK Research and Innovation's most recently published figures, Research Councils UK and Innovate UK spent upwards of £5.2 billion across the UK in 2020-21. Only £126 million of that was spent in Wales. This was down from the 2018-19 figure, which showed that, of the £5.4 billion spent across the UK, that year, Wales received £131 million. So, as well as the loss of access to EU funds, Welsh universities are being forced to compete for a shrinking pot of UKRI funding against better funded UK institutions. In 2018, Professor Graeme Reid published the findings of his independent review into Welsh Government's RD&I spending. The Welsh Government accepted the review's recommendations, but has, to this day, still not implemented them in full.So, in light of the dire backdrop against which Welsh institutions are facing and surviving, will the Welsh Government implement the recommendations in full, updated for the current economic and research landscape?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the most important point the Member made in relation to the Reid review is the very last point he made, because, in many ways, the key recommendations of the Reid review have been overtaken by changes in the research landscape that have happened since the report was published. And those are significant changes, and an updating of the Reid report would be necessary before any implementation plan could be confirmed.
Of course, I agree with the points that Luke Fletcher has made. It is for UKRI to demonstrate that the initials 'UK' mean something in its title. The funds that it has at its disposal—and they are significant—need to be spent in all parts of the United Kingdom, matching the very many strengths that are to be found in research institutions in all parts of the UK. Now, UKRI has itself a target of increasing the share of funding spent outside the golden halo of the south-east of England. And we work with our institutions here in Wales to make sure that they are as well placed as possible to compete for that UK level of research funding. We support, of course, universities ourselves—£82 million in QR funding to universities, £15 million above that in the research Wales innovation fund. But, with a UK Government that has recentralised money to the centre, changed the rules of research funding across the United Kingdom, it is for them to demonstrate that they are serious about investing in the research capacity of institutions in all parts of the United Kingdom.

Tom Giffard AS: I thank Luke Fletcher for tabling this question, and just to build on the point I think he was making, if Wales and Welsh universities are to feel the true benefits that we know research and innovation can bring, our institutions need additional support from the Welsh Government to achieve external investment and win those competitive funding bids. And Wales simply isn't achieving its potential when it comes to medical research in particular. According to the Office for National Statistics, out of the 12 nations and regions of the UK, Wales has proportionately the lowest expenditure on R&D. We spend 2 per cent of the UK total, despite the fact we have 5 per cent of the population. Wales also only wins 3 per cent of competitive funding. Shouldn't we be winning at least 5 per cent of it?
Now, the British Heart Foundation recently found that, for every £1 million spent on medical research by charities, it supports £2.3 million in output and £1.47 million in gross value added. So, First Minister, will you commit to working with the higher education sector, and the third sector, and organisations such as the British Heart Foundation, to ensure that Wales wins, at the very least, its population share of medical research funding in the UK?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the words of the Conservative Member will ring hollow in the ears of higher education institutions and, indeed, third sector organisations in Wales because they will know that, as a result of decisions that his party has made, £380 million that we were able to invest in research and in higher education in Wales in the last round of European funding now disappears entirely from Wales, placing 1,000 jobs in the research sector at risk. It is rich for Conservative Members to stand up here, demanding that the Welsh Government should spend more of our resources, when his Government denies those resources to Wales, with the results that we see. And that's not my view—that's not my view; those are the warnings of higher education institutions here in Wales. And while we will work with HE institutions in Wales to compete more successfully for those funds available at the UK level, let there be no doubt at all, Llywydd, that Wales itself is being starved of the funding that has supported that sector in the past by the deliberate decision of the Conservative Government in London.

Jack Sargeant AC: With permission, Llywydd, can I extend a warm welcome to Broughton Primary School, who are here in the Senedd with us today?
First Minister, we are incredibly proud in Alyn and Deeside to lead the way in research and innovation, and be home to the Welsh Government-backed advanced manufacturing research centre in Broughton. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that the next step in Cymru's innovation journey is the establishment of an advanced technology research centre in Sealand?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it's great to see those young people from Broughton here, having made the journey down to south Wales, and they'll have been pleased to hear their local Member asking a question on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon.
I've been very proud, Llywydd, to have visited the advanced manufacturing research centre and to have been there with Jack Sargeant on a number of occasions. And he's right to draw attention to the plans for the advanced technology research centre in Sealand. We are making some progress in our negotiations with the UK Government over that plan. The critical emerging technologies that will be taken forward when that centre is established have now been agreed—three priority areas: cyber-security, software engineering, and radio frequency technologies. I welcome the fact that, in the autumn statement, the UK Government committed £10 million to taking that plan forward. Since then, Llywydd, it has been a bit of a struggle to extract from the UK Government a sense of the terms on which that funding will be drawn down, the timescales against which that funding is to be made available, and even which department is in charge of making those decisions. Is it the Ministry of Defence, which is meant to be the lead department, or is it in fact the Treasury, who are holding the purse strings? So, while the prospect of the Sealand centre is exciting, we are committed to it, I hope the UK Government is as committed as they were in the autumn, and, if they are, then they need to speed up the decision making so that we can get on and make that centre a reality.

Mental Health Provision

Joyce Watson AC: 2. What is the Welsh Government doing to support mental health provision in Mid and West Wales? OQ59666

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we continue to provide significant and sustained support for mental health. In addition to the mental health ring-fenced allocation, Powys and Hywel Dda health boards have received £4.5 million in recurrent funding to improve mental health services over the last two years.

Joyce Watson AC: Hywel Dda is strong on mental health. It's the first health board in Wales to roll out the 111 press 2 service, where people can speak to a mental health practitioner 24/7, and it's currently piloting a number of forward-thinking alternatives to admissions, like sanctuaries for children and young people. So, there's a lot of great work that is happening. But, last week, I visited Shadows Depression Support Group in Garnant, which is facing funding cuts. They are doing vital work in the community, and it would be a significant blow to lose that support. So, post COVID, can you assure residents of the Amman and Gwendraeth valleys that mental health provision will remain a priority for your Government?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Joyce Watson for that, and I thank her for what she said about the work that goes on in the Hywel Dda health board. She's absolutely right that the 111 press 2 service has been pioneered in Hywel Dda, and the sanctuary service for young people suffering from mental health conditions—the sanctuary model that we've developed as part of the co-operation agreement—the first practical services opened in Haverfordwest, which will be very well known to Joyce Watson.
As far as the Garnant service is concerned, my understanding is that this is a decision of the local primary care health cluster. So, these are GPs who get together to commission services. They are often time limited. It's the job of the cluster to review the service, to decide whether that investment is giving the greatest return for their local populations. Now, the Minister responsible for mental health services will be in Hywel Dda next month, together with the designated Member, and I'm sure there will be opportunities to discuss the progress that is being made in pan-Hywel Dda services, but also to take up some of the specific points that Joyce Watson has raised this afternoon.

James Evans MS: First Minister, residents in my constituency and across Wales are having to leave the country to access specialist eating disorder services. The charity Beat has called on the Welsh Government to ensure there is specialist treatment at the earliest opportunity. A Welsh Government spokesperson said you were working with NHS Wales to scope the feasibility of a specialist eating disorder unit here in Wales. I'd like to associate myself with the comments of your backbench Member Sarah Murphy, who has said that we need timescales of when this is going to be delivered. So, First Minister, can you confirm today what progress you have made on this? And when are we going to have a specialist eating disorder service centre here in Wales to serve those people who need it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, first of all, let's be clear it's always been the case that, in Wales, we sometimes think it is clinically better for people to access specialist services that are provided across the border. I'm not a nationalist in the way that the Member appears to be. I think it's perfectly possible—. The Member shakes his head. His question to me was that somehow it is preferable for services to be provided in Wales than across the border, and I make the point to him that, sometimes, on a population of 3 million people, a specialist service will be better provided across our border. That has always been the case over 20 years, and, for certain specialisms, it will continue to be the case in the future. And a single eating disorder service for Wales—a single centre—would be far more geographically inconvenient for some parts of Wales than services that can be accessed more readily across the border in England. I have no objection to that because I think that is a better service for patients.
Nevertheless, the Welsh Government provided additional targeted service improvement funding of £2.5 million in the last financial year to recognise the priority of eating disorder services, and health boards have been identifying those local needs and seeing whether they aggregate into a case for a national service for some aspects of eating disorder services. So, that case is being assembled, and it will be for the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee to decide whether or not that service amounts to something that they would regard as to be funded. But the general point I return to it is where you have very particular needs, and the needs of some people with eating disorders are very particular indeed, a population of 3 million people will not support a service of that sort, and we should not feel hesitant about accessing that service elsewhere where that is in the interest of those patients.

Adam Price AC: I am meeting the Shadows Depression Support Group in the Amman valley on Friday, and I have to tell the First Minister that the news that this service is due to close in September has caused great concern for the 1,600 people who use the service at the moment. We must also bear in mind the waiting list in the Hywel Dda area for those that need therapy for mental health issues, where over 50 per cent are waiting over six months. So, what can we offer in terms of providing hope and assurance to them? I understand the point the First Minister made, that this was a decision from the local medical cluster, but is there a national framework in terms of assessing the costs and benefits of these decisions, and is there direct funding available for situations where, because of these decisions, there will be gaps in provision for these people? Shouldn't we ensure that there is continuity of support for people who truly need that support in the Amman and Gwendraeth valleys?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Adam Price for that supplementary question. He reflects what Joyce Watson has said already. Of course, I acknowledge the fact that, when services change, that does lead to concerns among some people, particularly those who have accessed the service that is already there.
But the purpose of creating a robust cluster with direct funding that goes straight to them is to provide them with the ability to make decisions. That's the purpose of what we have been developing for a number of years now, and for me, it is important to give that flexibility to local people who are close to the communities that they serve, to use the funding and the budgets that they have in a way that they assess will be effective in future.
I'm sure that the Minister will be able to speak, when she is down in Hywel Dda, with the health board about what is happening in Garnant. It's important to me to adhere to the principle whereby the decisions are made by the people on the ground, with all of the information that they have about local need, and what the most effective way is to respond to those needs.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives—Andrew RT Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, today is the first day of the UK COVID inquiry. I had very much hoped that I would be able to say that today is the first day for the Welsh independent COVID inquiry, but clearly, that's not going to happen on your watch as First Minister.
One of the points that has come out that the inquiry will spend some time looking at in the early part of the COVID inquiry is the decision by Governments across the UK to discharge patients from hospitals to care homes without testing. There was a full pandemic preparedness exercise undertaken in 2016, as I understand it. That preparedness exercise highlighted that this was a major risk and major concern. Do you agree that that was a risk too far, and that discharging patients from hospitals to care homes without testing should not have happened?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, I welcome very much the fact that today is the first day of full hearings at the independent UK inquiry. I hope very much that it will be able to provide answers for those families who lost loved ones and whose lives were affected by the awful experience of COVID. I think that they will be at the forefront of our minds, as well as the minds of the inquiry today.
The matters that the leader of the opposition raises are now matters for the inquiry. That is why there is an inquiry, and I'm not going to be able to offer him a running commentary on individual aspects of the inquiry's work that he chooses to raise with me. The issue of care homes and care home discharges, I agree with him, is a very important issue. It is identified by the inquiry as such. It is in the programme of modules that the inquiry will pursue in the autumn. I have no doubt at all that it will require evidence from the Welsh Government and, no doubt, witnesses from the Welsh Government on the decisions that were made here. But the point of an inquiry is for the inquiry to pursue those issues now, and that's where the Welsh Government's efforts will be focused.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, I didn't ask you to comment or offer running commentary on the inquiry. I asked you about a specific Welsh Government decision that was taken by you as First Minister, and by a Minister who is sitting in the Cabinet, when he was health Minister—now he's economy Minister. This is First Minister's questions. It is perfectly reasonable, surely, on the floor of the Welsh Parliament, for the opposition to ask the Government about policy decisions that were taken. I am merely seeking to see, given the passage of time, whether you believe that that was the right decision taken at that time. That is a perfectly reasonable line of questioning, and I will offer you a second time to answer that question, because if, all of a sudden, all this is going to be taken off the table, what is the point of the Welsh Parliament?

Mark Drakeford AC: It's a reasonable question, and here is my answer, and it's the same answer I gave him the first time: that these are matters now in front of the inquiry. Personally, I think it is disrespectful to the inquiry to try to shift the responsibility that they have into questions to me here. I will answer those questions in front of the inquiry that has been set up for this purpose. I won't second-guess what will be said there, I won't anticipate what the inquiry will want to know from me. There's an inquiry established, I want it to succeed, that is where my attentions will be directed. That's where answers to questions on this and many, many other aspects of the COVID experience are now properly to be answered.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I can't believe that on the floor of the Welsh Parliament we cannot get—[Interruption.] The Member for Ogmore is going, 'Work it out, Andrew', and this is the Member who stands up time and time again and talks of disrespect from Westminster to the Welsh Parliament in his role as Chairman of the legislation committee. How on earth can it be legitimate in every other legislature, whether it be Westminster or Holyrood, to have Members stand up and ask the respective Government Ministers about the biggest event that has happened to this country in a generation or more? It is perfectly reasonable for me and other Members to question, and the arrogance of the response from the First Minister will be noted by those COVID bereaved families in you not providing those answers.
So, I'll ask you again, for the third time—and you can turn me down again, but three times—it reminds me of many interviews that are done on the tv where people try and stonewall—are you hiding from something, First Minister? Because we deserve the respect of putting the answer on the record to make sure that people hear what their First Minister says. So, was it the right decision to discharge patients from hospital to social care homes without testing that you took and your health Minister took at that time?

Mark Drakeford AC: I think the leader of the opposition lets himself down, and, more importantly, he lets down the families who look to the inquiry to give them answers to those questions. When Ministers are asked that question in Holyrood and in Westminster, they will have the same answer, that the establishment of independent public inquiries to investigate these matters means that that is where these questions must now be answered. They are not to be answered in a piecemeal fashion by shadow-boxing on the floor of the Senedd, when there is an independent inquiry with all the expertise that has been assembled around it to explore those questions and to give people the best answers that they can get. He can ask me the question every week, he will have the same answer: the right place, the place I believe where those questions are to be pursued, is where they ought to be, in the independent inquiry that has been established for that purpose. That is what Ministers in his Government will be saying in Westminster as well.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Last week, First Minister, the Royal College of Radiologists published its 2022 workforce census, with some damning results, actually, from a Welsh perspective. It revealed staggering discrepancies in the proportion of oncologists across the UK, first of all: London with over 10 oncologists per 100,000 population compared with north and west Wales with just over two per 100,000 people. More worryingly, there are also striking regional disparities within Wales itself. While the number of clinical oncologists in south Wales is 6.1 per 100,000 older people, it stands at a mere 0.8 per 100,000 older people in north and west Wales.
The statistics on vacancy rates are equally alarming. Wales currently has an oncology vacancy rate of 11 per cent, with 80 per cent of these vacancies having remained unfilled for over six months. These trends are projected to leave Wales with a 41 per cent shortfall in oncology staff within the next four years, the highest by far within all of the UK nations. We know that the Welsh Government has set a target for cancer diagnosis and treatment to be undertaken within 62 days for 80 per cent of the population by 2026. It currently stands at just over a half. So, my question to you, First Minister, is how on earth do you expect to achieve this target in light of these of these alarming figures around oncology staffing levels in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: We will do that, Llywydd, by the investment that we are making in the cancer workforce of the future. Since August 2021, we have had a five-year programme of expansion in the training of medical oncologists and clinical oncologists. Every year, more people will enter training in Wales, and more people will therefore emerge in order to provide the treatments that will be needed in the future. We will have seen a 34 per cent increase in diagnostic radiography between 2017 and 2023, and we will go on expanding the workforce to make sure that we will be as well prepared for the additional demand for cancer services in Wales, which we know will be there in the future because of demography and other factors, as we are able to be.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And hopefully with equitable access, wherever you live in Wales. Your Government has often asserted that there are more people working in the Welsh NHS than ever before. I don’t dispute that overall picture, but it’s important, I think, to scrutinise the granular detail to understand why increases in the total number of staff employed in the NHS haven't led to any discernible improvement in workforce pressures. Plaid Cymru recently submitted freedom of information requests to each of the Welsh health boards asking for a year-by-year breakdown of full-time equivalent staffing levels for each staff group between March 2015 and 2023. A noticeable trend in the responses has been the extent to which levels of administrative and clerical staff have increased, whilst the levels of medical and dental staff have gone down. For example, in the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board area, while full-time equivalent levels of administrative and clerical staff rose by 37 per cent, there’s been an almost 20 per cent decrease in medical and dental staff over the same period, and that’s a picture that’s replicated in Velindre and other places as well. Does that not show, First Minister, that your Government needs a more targeted and strategic approach to solving this crisis in our NHS workforce, rather than simply relying on throwing more bureaucrats at the problem?

Mark Drakeford AC: There are two points, Llywydd. First of all, I don’t need to rely on FOI figures, because we have the official figures that are published every year on workforce, and in the first 20 years of devolution, we saw a 31 per cent increase in the number of GPs working in Wales, a 44 per cent increase in the number of nurses working in the NHS in Wales, a 92 per cent increase in the number of medical and dental staff, a 98 per cent increase in the scientific, therapeutic and technical staff, and a 152 per cent increase in the number of people working in the Welsh ambulance service. Those are the figures that I rely on, and they show a massive growth over 20 years in the medical, clinical workforce available here in Wales.
Actually, I think it’s a cheap shot, Llywydd, to refer to people who are supporting those people as simply bureaucrats. When those additional oncology clinicians become available, how does the Member think that they get to see the patients who come to see them every day? When a doctor turns up at the Heath hospital to carry out five cataract operations in a morning, how does he think those five patients and their notes and everything that is needed for those operations to be carried out—? Does he think it would be a good idea to ask doctors to do all of that? No. Those are the bureaucrats that he refers to.
When you have an expansion in the number of front-line clinicians in the health service at the extent that we have, of course they need people to support them in the work that they do. No doubt his bureaucrats include the people that the Welsh Government has now funded to pursue Welsh language services in each of our health boards. Does he think it would be a good idea to take them out of the figures? One person’s bureaucrat is another's person providing and supporting an essential service, and that’s what we see in the figures that he has outlined this afternoon.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And one person’s number of additional staff does not necessarily equate to full-time equivalent staff either, First Minister, in the figures that you quoted earlier.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: In tackling the pressures on the NHS workforce, we must also have public health campaigns that are robust, that prevent the need for healthcare in the first instance. Effective intervention by the Government to decrease the number of preventable diseases is vital in that regard—conditions such as type 2 diabetes, which affects around 180,000 people in Wales at present and costs around 10 per cent of the entire current NHS budget. Now, there is a quality statement for diabetes that will be the focus of an oral statement later on. I've had a look at what has been released by the Government already, but there's no mention made in there about the preventative agenda. May I ask you, therefore, about the latest information about the progress of the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme by your Government? And have you investigated options to increase the budget allocation for that, as you outlined that you would do in your 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy for 2022-24? Because, investing to prevent type 2 diabetes would not onlyimprove the health of the population, but would save money for the health service in the future.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, first of all, Llywydd, I agree entirely with Llyr Gruffydd on the importance of public health in helping us to avoid problems where they can be avoided, and for many people who suffer diabetes, there are changes that they could make in their lifestyle that would prevent the risk of diabetes in the future. There will be a statement this afternoon from the health Minister on diabetes services, covering everything we're doing in the area to support people who want to do the things that they can do within the sphere of public health, and also, in all of the other specialist services in that area too. So, there will be an opportunity for people to hear that update from the Minister and to question her during this afternoon's session.

Supporting the Economy

Paul Davies AC: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ59632

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government supports the economy in the Member's constituency through investment in infrastructure, funding skills development for existing and emerging industries, and support for innovation in creating the jobs of the future.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, one way to support the economy in Pembrokeshire is to support our tourism sector. Now, a few weeks ago, you came to Pembrokeshire and said that the Welsh Government will,
'continue to work with communities, visitors, and businesses to achieve sustainable growth for tourism across Wales.'
Now, the businesses that I speak to, right across Preseli Pembrokeshire, are overwhelmingly against the Welsh Government's plans for a tourism tax and against changes to self-catering occupancy rates. In fact, you'll be aware of the recent comments by William McNamara of Bluestone National Park Resort, who said that,
'What we don't want to see is a turn-off to Wales because there is a tourism tax here'.
First Minister, how does the Welsh Government respond to genuine business concerns about its tourism policies like this, and what will the Welsh Government do to restore confidence to businesses in my constituency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, let me be clear with the Member and the businesses that speak to him. There is going to be a visitor levy in Wales, brought forward by the Welsh Government, and if it gets supported on the floor of the Senedd then that will be the democratic will of the Senedd itself. Those proposals are coming forward. My advice to businesses in his community is, instead of complaining to him about what is going to be happening, to work with the Welsh Government to design the levy in a way, as we believe it will do, to support the sector in his constituency and elsewhere.
What we are doing, Llywydd, is to engage with those businesses. We held a consultation in every part of Wales, including in his part of Wales, to hear the views of the sector, and there were many, many constructive voices in that consultation, helping us to shape this policy in a way, as I believe it will, to create new investment in those conditions that allow that industry to thrive. That is the point of the visitor levy. It is to collect a very small contribution from people who visit tourist destinations in Wales, to invest in the circumstances that have made those locations attractive to them in the first place. The policy of Mr Davies's party appears to be that the whole burden of that should fall on the people who live locally. They don't believe that. I don't believe it either. That's why the visitor levy will come in front of this Senedd.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much to Paul Davies for raising this issue on economic development in Preseli Pembrokeshire. As we know, small businesses are facing a number of challenges at the moment, including poor public transport, digital connectivity, which is unreliable, and also a lack of banking services, to name but a few. But when businesses close in rural communities, like banks, post offices and shops, it can be very damaging indeed. But, it's encouraging that there are a number of examples, in Paul Davies's constituency, as it happens, of the community coming together to buy those assets and to create community businesses, such as Tafarn Sinc in Rosebush, the ironmonger Havards shop in Newport and, more recently, the community around Crymych has raised over £200,000 to buy the Crymych Arms as a community asset. So, last year, the Local Government and Housing Committee called on the Government to develop a range of measures to support communities to take control of these kinds of assets, and to follow the Scottish pattern, which is the community right to buy. Can I ask the First Minister, therefore, to introduce legislation of this kind in this Senedd?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Cefin Campbell very much for making those points. The emphasis that we put on the foundational economy is part of what we do as a Government to support local people when, as Cefin Campbell said, they come together to create new businesses when the traditional operators have withdrawn from those communities. And we recognise, as a Government, the importance of supporting local people when they do come together to make that effort to buy assets, like the people of Crymych have done already. This is part of the work that the Minister is doing, and I'm sure that when there is an update to give to Senedd, there will be an opportunity to do that.

Higher Paid Workforce

Mike Hedges AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the percentage of the Welsh workforce working in higher-paid economic sectors? OQ59638

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the latest available data for 2021 shows that 42.4 per cent of those in employment in Wales were working in higher paid industries.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that response? The unemployment rate over recent years in Wales has been lower than the UK average. I know we've had a blip in the last couple of months. We know that the median salaries in Wales are lower than that of the rest of the United Kingdom. In information and communications, we have 2.35 per cent; in finance and insurance, we have 3.32 per cent; and in professional, technical and scientific services, we have 2.61 per cent of the UK employment. What is wrong with the Welsh economy in numbers? These are higher paid sectors. How is Welsh Government working to create more employment in higher paid sectors? And how does the Welsh Government see the role of universities in developing employment in these sectors?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, of course, I agree with Mike Hedges that the universities have a very important role to play in that. In Veeqo, in his own constituency, that I visited with the Member for Swansea East, the 80 highly skilled technical roles that that business supports rely on their relationship with the university to attract graduates to those businesses. The general point that Mike Hedges makes is a very important one, Llywydd: we need more jobs in highly paid sectors here in Wales. And the strategies that the Minister for Economy is pursuing, the innovation strategy that was launched with the then leader of Plaid Cymru back in February and the investment that the Minister announced only last week in this area are designed to support those highly paid sectors that we have here in Wales. And we have them, Llywydd, as well. The tech and cyber sectors that the Minister made a statement on in front of the Senedd last week is one of those. Video games—there's a cluster of video game developers in Swansea itself. Fintech—another sector in which there is strong growth here in Wales. The media sector—Cardiff has the third largest screen sector in the United Kingdom after London and Manchester, and paying wages above that median Welsh figure. So, the Welsh Government's strategy has a real focus on identifying those sectors, helping them with the things that the Welsh Government can provide—and that is essentially investment in skills and in infrastructure—and, where there are nascent industries, as there are in Paul Davies's constituency, for example, we are investing there in the marine energy sector, powerful investment. Those will be the jobs of the future, and they'll be the sorts of jobs that Mike Hedges was asking about.

Altaf Hussain AS: First Minister, the world of work is at a crossroads. Jobs we could not have dreamed of a few decades ago are now replacing the highly skilled, highly paid manufacturing jobs of the past. Cloud architects are more common than boiler makers and machinists. With the rapid growth of AI—artificial intelligence—and large language models, tomorrow's workplace will be very different. AI will replace many higher paid employees across multiple sectors. First Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that young people have the necessary skills to adapt in a rapidly changing workplace to equip them for jobs we can't even imagine at this point?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think Altaf Hussain makes some really important points in what he just said. There is no doubt at all that the world of work is changing, and the jobs of the future will not simply be a reflection of the opportunities that were there in the past. In many parts of Wales, we have really excellent examples of new industries emerging that will offer young people in those localities the opportunities that we would want to see for them. When I was in France in March, I went to visit the headquarters of Thales—Thales who have a major investment in Ebbw Vale in cyber security, new jobs, jobs of the future, and now a really major new partnership emerging between Thales in Canada and Thales in Ebbw Vale. The company read a list to me of the countries around the globe who had now visited Ebbw Vale because it is a centre of excellence in the training of young people for those jobs.
Interestingly—the Member will be interested in this, I know—the people on the ground said to me that one of the challenges they faced was you could enthuse a young woman aged 13 or 14 about a future in cyber security. That young person then goes home and says to her parents, 'I'd like to be in cyber security in the future', and the parents say, 'Cyber security? I haven't heard of that. I know what a nurse does. I know what a teacher does. I know what somebody who works for the council does. Wouldn't it be better to stick to something where we know what we're doing here?'. So, their point was alive very much to the point that Altaf Hussain has made—that, in order to create those opportunities for the future, it's not just young people who we have to persuade, but we have to persuade families as well that the world of work is changing and the opportunities that will be there for their children and their grandchildren will be different, and they need to be with us on that journey.

Electrification of the South Wales Valley Lines

Vikki Howells AC: 5. Will the First Minister provide an update on the electrification of the south Wales valley lines? OQ59669

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Transport for Wales are making good progress with the electrification of the core Valleys lines. The upgrade works inevitably cause some disruption for passengers, but these works are essential in order to complete the transformation of the network and to deliver the generational change to services that it will bring about.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, it is excellent to note the progress on electrification. I am, however, concerned that this improvement does significantly increase the risks to those who trespass on the railway, including at Cwmbach in my constituency, where there's a pedestrian level crossing and one of the highest recorded rates of trespass in Wales. With almost 1,000 instances of anti-social behaviour and trespass on the core Valleys line alone in 2022, and with overhead line equipment supplying 100 times the electricity of a normal home supply, the consequences of trespass are now incredibly serious. Transport for Wales's 'no second chances' campaign is a very useful intervention, highlighting the risk of fatalities. First Minister, will you join with me in encouraging Members in this Chamber and our communities more widely to help spread this vitally important message?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, certainly, Llywydd, I would be very happy indeed to do that. The 'no second chances' campaign is a hard-hitting campaign for any of you who've seen the material that it uses, but it needs to be as well, because the overhead lines that are now live do pose a genuine and serious risk to anyone who trespasses on the network. Now, Transport for Wales, as part of the development, are what they call 'target hardening'. They are increasing security around the network, with additional fencing, extensions to safety barriers on bridges and so on, but it's not the people who follow the rules that we need to worry about here; it is those people who, in the past, have taken part in trespassing or sometimes in vandalism as well, because the risks to them from these developments are very real indeed.
TfW are going to be carrying out work in St David's Centre in Cardiff to communicate the changes that have come about and to pass on the messages of the campaign. And over the next 18 months, they will be visiting over 200 schools in Cardiff and in the Valley communities. I'm very happy, Llywydd, to ask TfW to provide all Members with details of that programme, and anything that we can do individually, in the areas that we represent, to reinforce that message that things have changed with electrification of the Valleys lines. Things have changed very much for the better, but there are risks involved as well, and young people, and anybody else who is unaware of that, have a right to know about those changes to make sure that they don't do things that place themselves at a very significant risk.

Joel James MS: Last week, First Minister, myself and my Local Government and Housing Committee colleagues visited our counterparts in Edinburgh and witnessed at first hand the success of their public transport system, which includes a mixture of regular trains, buses and trams. Indeed, a tram line runs directly to and from their international airport, ferrying tourists right into the heart of their capital city. I'm grateful for my colleague's question regarding the electrification of the south Wales Valleys lines, but it currently takes anything from 50 minutes to an hour and a half to get to Cardiff Airport from the city centre. I'm interested to know what specific action the Welsh Government is taking to improve connectivity to Cardiff Airport. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, connections to Cardiff Airport will not depend on electrification of the south Wales Valleys lines, which was the subject of this question.
I was lucky enough to be in Edinburgh over half term, and I agree with Member that the tram line that links the airport to the city centre is a very effective piece of public transport indeed. It was, as Members here will remember, many years and many, many millions of pounds late and over budget by the time that it came about. There are arrangements for public transport to Cardiff Airport, Llywydd; they don't depend on electrification of the south Wales railway line.

Question 6 [OQ59658] and 7 [OQ59670] have been withdrawn. Question 8, Gareth Davies.

Supporting Local Food and Drink Producers

Gareth Davies AS: 8. What is the Welsh Government’s strategy for supporting local food and drink producers in Denbighshire? OQ59668

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our strategy continues to support food and drink producers across Wales, including those in Denbighshire. We assist producers to improve performance and competitiveness, to pursue diversification and to identify and succeed in new and existing markets.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for your response this afternoon, First Minister, and I may have mentioned a couple of times in passing the Denbigh plum, which is Wales's only native plum, which dates way, way back to the 1700s and has special status. And what's to be celebrated is the fact that many local businesses and enterprises have capitalised from the success of Denbigh plum, including Shlizzy from Bodfari, which is a local gin and vodka producer that uses Denbigh plums for their juice. And there's also the Denbigh Plum Feast in the town every September, which has been very much a success in the Vale of Clwyd. And more generally, on top of this, we have the Snowdonia Cheese Company Limitedin Rhyl, which exports high-quality dairy products across the four corners of the world from its factory in Rhyl. And recently, we've seen the incorporation of Vale Vineyard in Llandyrnog, which grows white and red grapes, much to the delight of wine lovers across Denbighshire and broader afield. So, with that in mind, First Minister, will you join me in celebrating the success of local food and drink producers in Denbighshire, recognise that we punch well above our weight in terms of a small geographical county in terms of the output we have with food producers, and will you reaffirm your Government's commitment to enjoying the successes of culinary developments in north Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member very much for that supplementary question. I'm absolutely keen to join with him in celebrating the success of those producers in Denbighshire. The Welsh Government was very pleased to play our part in securing food name status for the Denbigh plum early in 2019, and, indeed, to provide funding for the Denbigh plum event last year. When the former First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, retired from being First Minister, those of us who worked with him decided that the gift we would provide would be to give him a set of native Welsh species to plant in his orchard at home, and the Denbigh plum was quite certainly one of those.
Llywydd, I look forward to being at the Royal Welsh Show this year. We know that there will be at least two producers from Denbighshire in the food hall and in the trade business lounge, which is where a lot of long-term business gets done. There will be nine producers from Denbighshire alone making sure that they are able to display the fantastic products that they have on offer, and secure new orders for the future. And to have nine producers from a single county at that event, I think it is a tribute, as the Member said, to the enterprise, the initiative and the sheer hard work of those who work in this sector in his constituency.

Ken Skates AC: I'd like to thank the Member for tabling this important question. Denbighshire is famous, of course, for its plums, but also for its other produce, including the produce from fantastic independent brewers across the county. First Minister, would you agree that those independent brewers contribute not just to the economy, but positively to the identity of the communities that they're based in? And will the Welsh Government go on promoting them and supporting them all that it can?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think I had an opportunity to visit one of those outlets with the Member when we were said to be on the campaign trail in his constituency not that long ago. [Laughter.] And of course, he is right that those small, independent brewers, they provide not just an excellent product but that sense of local identity that goes alongside it. Just as we celebrate the Denbigh plum, so we celebrate the work of those independent brewers that operate in that part of Wales.

National Park Designation

Carolyn Thomas AS: 9. Will the First Minister provide an update on the designation of the Clwydian range and Dee valley area of outstanding natural beauty as a national park? OQ59644

Mark Drakeford AC: Delivery of the commitment to designate a new national park remains on track for completion during this Senedd term. With a project team established and initial analysis complete, Natural Resources Wales has now moved on to gathering the detailed evidence needed, and engagement with residents, users and key stakeholders of that new national park.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome the progress, First Minister; that's really good to hear. One common concern is managing tourism so that it's sustainable, and I believe that the area of outstanding natural beauty already is very good at doing this. One initiative that they have is the hop-off, hop-on bus that tours the Dee valley. it's a circular route running every Saturday from 1 April to 4 November, linking Llangollen and the surrounding villages to popular local tourist destinations, including the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, Wenffrwd nature reserve, Horseshoe Falls, Valle Crucis abbey, Plas Newyddhistoric house and the Horsehoe Pass. First Minister, would Transport for Wales promote this initiative along with a general campaign to get more people on public bus transport? It's really good to use this bus to visit local attractions, rather than taking the car. And could you update the Chamber on when you expect the consultation to proceed regarding the redesignation with the local local people living in the area? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Carolyn Thomas for those questions. On her final point, the process of gaining national park designation is a significant one, and there are a series of legal obligations that have to be discharged along the route. A point in the process will come where there will be a formal consultation. We expect that to happen in 2024, and what will happen in advance of that will be the engagement exercise that I referred to in my original answer.
As to the hop-on, hop-off sightseeing bus, it’s one of the pleasures of First Minister’s questions to become more familiar with parts of north Wales as we follow the Member on her bus journeys around it, so I’m grateful to her for that. I’m sure that the bus in the Clwydian range, the Dee valley area, is a very important part of reducing congestion and increasing access and, Llywydd, there is very good evidence to draw on in improving those services in the new national park, because Sherpa’r Wyddfa, which is a new service that I’ve mentioned here before in answering questions from Siân Gwenllian, has had a similar service in the Eryri national park since 2021. In 2021, the patronage of that service was 267,000 passengers, and it grew to 380,000 passengers in a single year, in the year 2022. So, we’re expecting a further growth in that service and I think it demonstrates the success that can be had from providing bus transport focused on the particular advantages that come with being a national park, and making sure that visitors are able to use those beautiful parts of Wales in a way that is convenient for them, but sustainable for those who live in that area as well.

Finally, question 10. Jack Sargeant.

Regulation of Artificial Intelligence

Jack Sargeant AC: 10. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about regulation of artificial intelligence? OQ59636

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government officials have been in dialogue with counterparts in the UK Government about AI regulation. I support the need for regulation in this area, alongside relevant standards, governance and assurance mechanisms that will help ensure that AI is used in responsible, ethical, inclusive and safe ways.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for his answer, and can I put on record my support for his comments he’s made there? That is to say, as an engineer, First Minister, I have been surprised for some time, actually, about how little AI has been talked about in policy circles. I think it was around three years ago now when I wrote about the need to manage automation very carefully if we weren’t to see the same sort of impact that we saw with deindustrialisation in the 1980s.
Now, we’ve heard already from Altaf Hussain in the Chamber the opportunities that AI has in front of us, and we must embrace those opportunities, because AI is happening. What’s important, First Minister, is we get our response right. That is to say that, globally, we have been playing regulatory catch-up ever since social media emerged, and AI is about to significantly provide a bigger change. We must work together to regulate right and to ensure a just transition protects working people. First Minister, will you take that message directly to the UK Government, and will you also outline how, in Wales, we work through our social partnership approach to ensure a just transition?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Jack Sargeant makes a series of very important points. If the debate on AI has been slow to emerge, it has certainly caught fire in more recent weeks. This is an area where I believe that UK-wide regulation has significant advantages, and the Welsh Government will play our part in the consultation that the UK Government is currently carrying out on AI regulation. But we will do it in the way that Jack Sargeant has suggested, Llywydd—we will do it in a spirit of social partnership. We will make sure that our response draws on the views of the wider private and public sector in Wales. We know that our trade union colleagues have done some very important work into the impact of AI in the workplace. We will also draw, Llywydd, on the close relationship that we have with the Centre for Data, Ethics and Innovation, because this is an area where I think being sure that we do not treat it simply as a technological issue, but that we are alert to the ethical issues that stand alongside it, is very important in order to make sure that the advantages can be harvested andthat the rights of individuals are also properly protected. That will be the focus of our contribution to the consultation, and then I hope that, instead of playing catch-up, as Jack Sargeant has said, we will have a regulatory regime in place that has the public interest at its core, despite the fact that we are often dealing here with very powerful and transnational companies.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item, therefore, is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Can I call for an oral or written statement from the Minister for Climate Change on the rules around retrospective planning applications, enforcements and appeals, please? I have an issue within my constituency where a retrospective planning application was applied for four years ago, and despite being rejected on three separate occasions, a further appeal has been lodged, which means a final decision will not be taken until next year. One of the conditions the application has been rejected on can never be overcome. So, a community are left frustrated that building work has continued, and a second and third retrospective application was allowed to be submitted.
What has also caused frustration is that the enforcement notice has also been appealed. Surely, when a planning condition can't be overcome—is physically unable to be overcome—then allowing retrospective submissions a second and third time, and appeals, is a costly, time-consuming exercise on already stretched planing authorities. So, can I ask for a statement accordingly? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister is currently reviewing the regulations around retrospective planning permissions. I think what you're asking is very, very specific and the Minister is in her place and has heard you. I think it might be best if you write to her directly.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Trefnydd. May I ask for two statements, please? The first, a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services about the recruitment and training of dentists, and what steps are being taken to improve overseas recruitment to the profession. I've met with many practitioners over recent months, and I know we've got a very valuable report from the health committee around dentists. One of the issues is overseas recruitment being the only real short-term response. So, I'd like to understand where that's at, please.
And, secondly, a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change around bus reform legislation and the timetable around that, please. On Friday, I met with residents in Borth, Ceredigion, to hear about their concerns about the deterioration of bus services in their community. We've had a statement on the short-term picture, but the legislation is long overdue, and I'd be grateful, as I'm sure others would as well, for an update from the Minister on the progress of these legislative proposals, andthe timescales as well for the legislation. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister for Health and Social Services is very keen to attract overseas graduates and, indeed, international dentists to work here in Wales. Those dentists who have a primary degree from the European Union, or the European Economic Area, are eligible to have full registration with the General Dental Council straight away. That allows them, then, to join the NHS performer list, to work in primary care dental practice. If an individual doesn't have those degrees, if he or she has registration from a non-EU or non-EAA institution, they then have to complete the overseas registration examination. What we're doing is making sure that they are available to those international dentists, and I know the number of places on this summer's sitting of that exam has tripled as part of the recovery of the examination following the COVID pandemic. The Minister's also very keen, as I said, to attract international graduates on the tier 5 visa programme within hospital settings.
In relation to your second question around bus legislation, you'll be aware that the First Minister, every year, brings forward a statement in the Chamber, and, last year, in his legislative statement to the Siambr, he stated that we would bring forward a bus reform Bill in the third year of this Senedd term.

Altaf Hussain AS: Trefnydd, could I request a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services, providing us with an update on access to fracture liaison services in Wales? Fractures caused by osteoporosis affect half of women over 50, and a fifth of men. In terms of years lost to premature deaths and disability, fractures are the fourth most devastating health condition of all. Effective therapies exist, but the postcode lottery for fracture liaison services means that thousands of people who need it are missing out on treatment. The result is thousands of preventable spinal and hairline fractures that are life changing for people and costly for the NHS. In February, the Minister issued a written statement, stating that she expected health boards to achieve 100 per cent coverage of FLS by September next year. This week, the Royal Osteoporosis Society will launch a campaign to end the postcode lottery for FLS across the UK. I would be grateful if the Minister could provide the Chamber with an update on the progress being made here in Wales. Thank you very much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you outlined very clearly the many harms that come from a fracture—it's not just the fracture itself, but the life-changing issues that can often follow, particularly very complex fractures. I think the Minister for Health and Social Services is very keen to continue working, particularly with our third sector, to be very proactive to try to ensure that people avoid falls in the first place, for instance, so that they're not requiring then the hospital treatment and, as you say, the therapies after. The Minister did make a written statement back in February. There's still quite a significant amount of time—probably about 16 months—before the deadline that she set for the health boards, so I don't think a statement at the moment is necessary. But I'm sure that, if the Minister feels there is something to update Members on, she'll be happy to bring forward a written statement.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for two statements. The first is on the Welsh Government strategy for cystic fibrosis in Wales. I'm sure you'll be aware that this week marks Cystic Fibrosis Week. Cystic fibrosis is a progressive genetic condition that primarily causes the lungs and digestive system to become clogged with mucus, and affects roughly 500 people across Wales. As well as affecting them physically and mentally, it also affects them financially. And according to a recent report conducted by the University of Bristol, the additional cost of living with cystic fibrosis is over £6,500 each year. Despite the current median age of death for someone with cystic fibrosis being tragically young, at just 38, this means that, over their lifetime, they will face roughly £0.25 million of extra costs. I therefore call for a statement from the Welsh Government on its strategy both to speed up the development of new cystic fibrosis treatments, and to address the need for financial support for people living with cystic fibrosis.
I also call for a statement from the health Minister on the care and treatment of polio survivors in Wales. As a patron of the British Polio Fellowship, I sponsored and spoke at last Wednesday evening's event in the Senedd, launching their optimal clinical care pathway for people affected by polio, attended by many polio survivors living in Wales, who emphasised how important the pathway is to them. Thousands contracted the polio virus when they were children, and they continue to suffer with its long-term consequences. The pathway is a recommended patient route through the healthcare system, which will ensure polio survivors receive the right care at the right time, and they need it to be adopted by the NHS, health boards and social care services across Wales. I therefore call for a statement by the health Minister, detailing how she will engage with the British Polio Fellowship regarding implementation of the pathway, and the need to reduce variation in care for polio survivors living in Wales. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you say, it's good to see—. I can see you've got your badge on, recognising the Cystic Fibrosis Trust and the work that they undertake. And the Minister for Health and Social Services has made it very clear to health boards her expectations around that, and, obviously, new drugs that do come forward to help with this devastating disease are looked at on a case-by-case basis.
With regard to polio survivors, as you say, there are many polio survivors living in Wales at the current time. I'm not aware of the pathway process, but I will certainly ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to inform Members if there is anything specific being done in relation to that.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the First Minister: Raising Wales’s International Profile—An update on the Welsh Government’s international relations activity

The next item is a statement by the First Minister on raising Wales's international profile and an update on the Welsh Government's international relations activity. The First Minister, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Wales has long been an outward-looking country with strong international connections. Our history is full of stories of close collaboration with our nearest neighbours. Indeed, one of the most striking features of the Age of Saints is how far, and how frequently, Welsh men and women travelled to other places, with the sea that surrounds us on three sides as their common highway. Hundreds of years later, our leading role in the first industrial revolution drew people from around the globe to Wales for our coal, our iron and steel, and people with Welsh heritage have travelled beyond our borders and are to be found in every part of the world. That strong sense of internationalism is as significant to us today as it was all those centuries ago. It helps us to prosper as a country.
The UK’s decision to leave the European Union has made it more important than ever that we maintain and strengthen our long-standing relationships with regions and countries in Europe, but also with partners around the world. Our international strategy was developed to do just that, and to use all opportunities to build our profile internationally, and in that way to support businesses by opening new markets, supporting them to increase their exports and encouraging inward investment to Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, Welsh goods exports surpassed the value of their pre-pandemic level at £20.5 billion in 2022. We will invest £4 million this year in a comprehensive programme of export support for Welsh businesses, including an active programme of trade missions and events. Following visits to Boston and Amsterdam last week, we will be taking businesses to Paris later this month.
Our international work, though, is not simply about trade. It’s an important opportunity to draw attention to the enormous talent that lies within Wales, and the values that are important to us as a nation. The unparalleled global attention focused on the world cup in Qatar provided a platform to promote Wales, to create opportunities for co-operation and business, but also to take every chance to set out the importance to Wales of our commitment to those rights—human rights, labour rights, rights of the LGBTQ+ population—that we believe belong to us all.
Dirprwy Lywydd, sport is of huge interest to many of our fellow citizens. That is why it provides such an important platform for us to tell the story of Wales. Whether that’s the incredible sporting success of our athletes, from world cup finals in Qatar to the women’s rugby team reaching the finals in New Zealand or the six athletes we met in the Senedd last week, before they compete in the Special Olympics in Berlin later this month. Wrexham is now well and truly on the international map, thanks to success on the football field and something the Trefnydd was just saying to me about Hollywood. [Laughter.] And Dirprwy Lywydd, there is much more to come.
In March this year, we launched Wales in France 2023, a key focus for this year, based around, but going beyond, the men’s Rugby World Cup. Just as we did in 2019 in Japan, we look forward to the opportunities to promote Wales by bringing together Government and external stakeholders to work together for Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: This collaborative model around sport has achieved so much already that Wales has been invited to the World Congress on Sports Diplomacy to showcase our model in the Basque Country later this year, another part of the world with particularly strong links to Wales.
Dirprwy Lywydd, sporting success and the international profile of our creative industries—this is, after all, the week of the Cardiff Singer of the World competition—are of special importance to our young people. Last year, I had the privilege of joining Urdd Gobaith Cymru in Oslo, as it delivered its one hundredth consecutive annual message of peace and goodwill at the Nobel Peace Centre.
That sense of a confident nation, our face turned outwards to meet the world and welcoming of others to our shores, lies at the heart of our ambition to be a nation of sanctuary and of our Taith programme for young people. That programme has already done an enormous amount of good in creating opportunities for Welsh participants to experience, at first hand, what the world has to offer, and to welcome young people from around the world to Wales. And the investment we are making in it is repaid time and time again in the reputation that it has reinforced for Wales as a place determined to remain engaged with that wider international community.
Dirprwy Lywydd, that is why, over the last 12 months, we have taken further steps to strengthen our relationship with Ireland—our closest and most important European partner. I was part of a ministerial delegation to Cork and Dublin for the second Wales-Ireland ministerial forum in October. It was very good that the Consul General for Ireland could join us in north Wales for the north Wales Cabinet committee last month, and we will host the third Wales-Ireland ministerial forum meeting in north Wales in the autumn.
Our Wales in Canada 2022 year delivered more than 35 activities across seven provinces in Canada, as well as virtual activities, engaging literally millions of people. The campaign has strengthened and deepened existing relationships and forged new partnerships across Canada and between Canada and Wales.
Every year, of course, St David’s Day provides us with an opportunity to promote Wales overseas. I visited Brussels, the Minister for education was in Ireland, and the health Minister was in Copenhagen, as together we sought to support Welsh activity around the world—activity in London, and activity in the USA, Canada, China, Japan, India, the middle east and Europe led by our overseas network and bringing Wales to the attention of the world.
Of course, international engagement doesn’t just happen when we travel to other countries. An outwardly focused nation is also a welcoming and inviting nation. Since April last year, Ministers have welcomed more than 40 international representatives here to Wales. Only last week, the Minister President of Flanders was in Cardiff. His primary reason for being here to sign a new memorandum of understanding with Wales, and we aim to sign similar bilateral agreements with Baden Württemberg and with Silesia in Poland over the next 12 months.
While we may have left the European Union, we have most certainly not left Europe, and this Government is determined to use our international strategy to continue to engage with our nearest and most important neighbours. In that context, last year, we hosted an event to highlight the Taith programme in the European Parliament, the economy Minister addressed the regional development committee in the European Parliament, and only last month we welcomed the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions to Cardiff to host its general assembly of Atlantic regions.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is just a snapshot of the international activity in which this Government has been engaged over the last 12 months as we deliver our international strategy. That strategy celebrates the multinational character of contemporary Wales, proud of our achievements, confident in our own identity, open to opportunities on the world stage, ready to support businesses as they seek new opportunities to trade, and determined that our young people grow up to belong both to Wales and to the world.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister, for your statement this afternoon. Obviously, being internationally looking and outward looking is an important part of any modern, dynamic country and we commend efforts to make sure that Wales is at the forefront of those initiatives. The one sporting team that you missed out in praising, First Minister—I’m sure it was an unintended omission—was the Welsh men and women’s deaf sevens team that went out and won the world cup in Argentina, which is something I think we should be commending, because they came home with the silverware and many of them funded that trip out to Argentina from their own pockets, which was no small feat for many of them.

Mike Hedges AC: And supporting their clubs.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I couldn’t put it better than what Mike Hedges has just put from the backbenches on your side.
When it comes to inward investment, First Minister, it is vital that we secure a fair share of inward investment by being positive and promoting what’s good about Wales and why companies need to locate here in Wales. PricewaterhouseCoopers International's survey of senior managers and chief executives of worldwide companies indicated the UK was still the third most attractive place in the world after China and America to look at for inward investment. Regrettably, the last set of figures that we had come forward, for 2021-22, indicated Wales received the lowest share of FDIs into the UK other than Northern Ireland, but also had the lowest job creation numbers at under 1,800 jobs being created by such projects. Can you outline how the Welsh Government is positively, proactively looking to make sure we increase our share of foreign direct investment, and in particular the jobs that flow from those investments, because, obviously, the job numbers today indicate that unemployment regrettably is going up here in Wales, contrary to other parts of the United Kingdom?
Also, with trade deals very much on the agenda from the UK Government’s perspective, but on all fronts now, whether it’s North American Governments, the EU themselves, which you touch on in your statement—the EU today are out in South America; the president of the Commission is there, negotiating trade deals with Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and Argentina that don’t look dissimilar to many of the trade deals that the United Kingdom Government have put in place that have been criticised from your benches—. So, I’d be really pleased to understand how the Welsh Government engages with the UK Government when trade deals are being formulated and discussed, and what support is made available from the Welsh side of the equation. I appreciate more work needs to be done on that relationship, and I do understand the frustrations that Ministers—and I can see Ministers nodding their heads in frustration—but it is a fact that trade deals are going to be very important, going forward, and it is important that there is a good robust relationship on both fronts from the two Governments that are responsible here in Wales, whether that be the UK Government or the Welsh Government.
I’d also like to try and understand how Welsh Government offices across the world interact with the diplomatic presence that the UK Government has with its embassy network and consulate network, because it is vital that we don’t end up replicating good work that is done by other offices, and we draw on the strength and expertise that exists in many of the embassies and consulates and the access to governments at an international level to support the promotion of Wales.
And finally, if I could ask for an update on the Wales and Africa programme, something that obviously successive Welsh Governments have invested greatly in. But there is a sad fact to this, in that the Ugandan Government has recently passed legislation that is abhorrent, I would suggest—no, I wouldn’t just suggest; I would say it is abhorrent, and it shouldn’t be the people of Uganda that should suffer. The Welsh Government should, on an international front, be highlighting its disgust at this legislation that has been put on the statute in Uganda. Obviously, there’s a rolling programme of investment for the Wales and Africa programme in Uganda. I note the statement this afternoon doesn’t touch on this, so if the First Minister could highlight what representations the Government has made to the Ugandan Government, I think the Chamber would be informed by those answers. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank the leader of the opposition for those questions? I thank him for what he said at the start of his questions about the importance of international relations for Wales and promoting Wales across the world. I absolutely want to celebrate the achievements of the deaf rugby team. I was very pleased to be able to record some messages for them to promote the opportunities that they were engaged in, and I'm hoping that we will be able to welcome them at some point in the not-too-distant future to celebrate that remarkable achievement.

Mark Drakeford AC: As far as inward investment is concerned, the FDI results for 2022-23 will be published by the UK Government either at the end of this month or early in July. I'm sure the figures will be of interest to the Member. They're under strict embargo, so I mustn't anticipate them, but I expect they will begin to show the emergence from the pandemic period, which was so heavily reflected in the last set of figures, and indeed the figures the year before. I agree with what Andrew R.T. Davies said about the importance of foreign direct investment. We think there are around 1,340 foreign-owned companies here in Wales and they employ over 164,000 people, so they are a major part of the Welsh economy. The USA is our largest non-EU presence, Germany the largest investor from the EU, and our activity in supporting Welsh businesses is very much focused on making sure that potential inward investors are aware of everything that they would get were they to come and invest here in Wales, and we've had some significant successes. The work that my colleague Vaughan Gethingled in securing major US investment in Newport in the semiconductor sector is just one example of the way in which the work that lies behind the international strategy turns into tangible benefits for Wales.
I'm less optimistic than the leader of the opposition about trade deals. I see trade deals struck by the UK Government now disowned by people who were Ministers in that Government when those trade deals were struck. What has George Eustace said about the way in which Welsh farmers were sold down the river by the UK Government in its anxiety to demonstrate that a post-Brexit world allowed trade deals in far-flung parts of the world? That's not my view; that's the view of the Minister in charge of the rural economy in England. He's disowned the trade deal that his own Government struck. So, we will be doing whatever we can to influence the UK to strike deals that take a rounded view of the UK economy, that it isn't prepared to sacrifice some parts of the United Kingdom for what turn out to be utterly marginal and probably evanescent benefits in other parts of the world.
The leader of the opposition asked me about the relationship between the Welsh Government offices—21 of them—outside Wales and the offices supported by the UK Government. I'm pleased to say that the relationship is generally a very strong one. Many of our offices in other parts of the world are situated inside UK embassies, and on the ground the support we get from diplomats in other parts of the world is outstanding. They work very closely with us. They regard Welsh Government employees there as part of the team there to support and promote Wales, but as part of that wider effort, and I think we benefit very much from that. We benefit particularly when we have Welsh-connected people. When I was in Paris in the embassy there, and our French representative works inside that embassy team, the fact that Menna Richards is a Welsh person from the Rhondda representing the United Kingdom clearly works for the benefit of Wales as well.
Finally, in relation to Wales and Africa, the actions of the President of Uganda are abhorrent. We will have nothing at all to do with them. We've expressed those views in the strongest terms, as has the UK Government as well. Sometimes we have to make a distinction between political leadership and the people in those countries that we are trying to support. Our very modest Wales and Africa programme works not at a governmental level, but most often with young women in parts of Africa who are trying to find new ways in which they can generate economic activity to support themselves and their families. That's absolutely true of our activity in Uganda. In Mbale, where we have sponsored millions of trees to be planted to create a new industry in that part of Africa, it is young people, and young women in particular, whose livelihoods we are safeguarding and supporting. I don't think anybody here would want us to put those things at risk because of the abhorrent—and I echo the word the leader of the opposition used—actions of a particular Government at a particular moment in time.

Adam Price AC: One of the key objectives of the Welsh Government's international strategy is for Wales to achieve its aspiration of being a globally responsible nation, and to do so in a way that aligns with the best of our progressive values. As Uganda has been mentioned already and we're in Pride Month, I think it's important to recognise the extent of what we're talking about here. The Bill that has now been enacted in Uganda is the most egregious example, throughout the entire Commonwealth, of discriminatory legislation in relation to the LGBTQ community. It not only criminalises the so-called promotion of LGBT communities—it actually involves the death penalty under certain circumstances. Ugandan LGBTQ+ activists have called on governments across the world now to pause all aid to Uganda while this statute remains in place. That was the strategy that was effective 10 years ago when an almost identical Bill was passed. The US Government under the Obama administration stopped some aid immediately, they threatened to pull all aid, and, in a matter of months, the Act was annulled. So, will the Welsh Government join this international campaign to pause aid to Uganda in response to the calls from Ugandan LGBTQ activists?
Turning to Qatar, there was criticism, as the First Minister knows, obviously, of the ministerial visits to Qatar, partly because of their record in terms of LGBTQ+ rights, and also in relation to migrant workers and other aspects of human rights. I know that he has said previously that he didn't regret Ministers accepting hospitality from the Qatari Government, but would he accept that it would be better, in future, to have a clear and simple rule that Welsh Government Ministers and officials travelling on official business representing Wales should do so based on Welsh Government expenditure rather than accepting travel and accommodation hospitality from other Governments, to avoid even the perception that that, in some way, compromises the independence of our representatives abroad?
You mentioned the Nobel Peace Centre and Wales's tradition of peace and internationalism, so could I raise with you Welsh Government participation in the DSEI arms trade fair that is going to be held again in London this September? The Labour Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, has said that the fair’s presence in London is insulting to people who have escaped violence, and he has asked for it to be cancelled. So, can you give a commitment that no Welsh Government officials will attend this event and no public money will be used in supporting any Welsh organisation to attend either? Many countries of concern, to use the official phrase, are invited to this arms trade fair. Scandalously, among them is Saudi Arabia, a country that is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in Yemen. Surely, our claim to be a nation of sanctuary is pretty hollow if we are, effectively, tacitly supporting the very wars that are creating refugees when we say we're committed to supporting them.
Can I turn to the Brown report on devolution, which actually called for an amendment to the foreign affairs reservation in the relevant Scotland Act to allow the Scottish Government to join international bodies? I think, First Minister—correct me if I'm wrong—you've said that you would like to see that applied to Wales as well. In preparation for that, could the Welsh Government conduct a review of the kinds of international bodies that we could effectively join, the ones that accept sub-national Governments—that's the technical term; we are a nation, of course—either as full members or associate members? UNESCO, the International Maritime Organization, the Food and Agriculture Organization, and even, I believe, the European Broadcasting Union now allow countries without full member state status to join. So, could we have a study of that?
And finally, if I can test your patience—

You've already gone past your time.

Adam Price AC: I was going to pray in aid the late Steffan Lewis in one of his great ideas, which was the creation of a Celtic development bank, building on the bilateral discussions with Ireland, bringing in possibly Scotland as well, to look at the possibility of joint infrastructure projects where we have so much common interest across the Celtic sea, and in other ways as well. Could we possibly look at creating that institution? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford AC: In relation to the first point that the Member makes, I think it's a complex argument and it's possible for reasonable people to come down on different sides of it. The actions of the Ugandan Government are absolutely to be criticised, and they are absolutely to be held to account by the international community for those actions. Pausing all aid would mean that the small projects in which we are involved to improve the health of mothers in the part of Uganda in which we're involved would be paused, and there will be people giving birth during that time who will not see the benefit of those projects. The very small start-up businesses that we are supporting, again animated by women in that part of Uganda, would lose that opportunity to get off the ground and to start to make a difference in the lives of some of the poorest people with which we are engaged.
I understand the argument that unless you're prepared to do something, then the message to the Ugandan Government isn't heard as loudly as it would be. At this point, our conclusion is, as I said in my answer to the leader of the opposition, that we have to distinguish between the people we are trying to support and the temporary Government that has put into law the abhorrent piece of legislation that everybody in this Chamber would condemn. I've had the opportunity to meet young people from Uganda who have come here—Jenipher's Coffi, other people who we have been so proud to support. I don't believe at this point that putting their welfare in peril would have the impact of changing the mind of the Government, and everybody would be worse off and nobody would be better off as a result.
As far as hospitality in Qatar is concerned, the Welsh Government would have much preferred to have secured our own hospitality in the normal way. It was made absolutely clear to us that if we did we would not be able to find anywhere to stay inside the zone where all the activities in which we were able to make the points that Members in this Senedd were keen for us to make would be held. So, we would have gone there and we would have not been able to do any of those things that we regarded as important, and were powerfully supported across the Chamber. So, while it was definitely our preference, sometimes local organisers have an ability to shape the terms in which you participate in a way that you cannot overcome.
As far as the arms trade fair in London is concerned, there will be no Welsh Government stand or direct presence in that way. I can't give an absolute assurance that no public money would not have found its way into the pockets of businesses that will be represented at that fair, but there will be no direct Welsh Government representation at it.
The Brown report quite definitely does encompass Wales alongside Scotland. Anything that is devolved to Scotland can be devolved to Wales, the report says—a really important principle where Wales would wish that to happen. It was the basis of my own visit to UNESCO, when I was in Paris at the end of March, to explore with them the terms on which sub-national Governments are able to participate in that organisation.I'm looking forward to a return visit from senior officials of the UK at UNESCO, who are going to come to Wales to continue that conversation in the coming weeks. There are many other bodies; Adam Price identified some of them. I've spoken quite a lot in my statement about the importance of Taith to us. I'd much rather we were using that money as the entrance fee to Erasmus+. As good as Taith is, as important as it is to us, wouldn't it be better for young people in Wales to enjoy all the benefits that come from participation in that? We were prevented from doing so by the UK Government; the Gordon Brown report would open the door for us to do that again.
I'm happy to provide an assurance to Adam Price that, in our discussions with the Scottish Government, but certainly with the Republic Government in those inter-ministerial exchanges, the idea of mutual investment across the Celtic sea in those nascent industries has been part of that conversation, and I'm quite sure it will continue to be so.

This item has actually reached the end of its allotted time and there are six speakers still to contribute. I intend to call them all, hopefully, but I do ask them to keep to their time limits. They know their time limits, and the first one who's going to do exactly that, I'm sure, is John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First Minister, I'm pleased that you were able to visit the Basque Country in March and look to strengthening our memorandum of understanding and this key relationship. In Newport, of course, we have CAF as a train manufacturer from the Basque Country, with good-quality engineering jobs, and I hope that, in the future, we will see that economic co-operation between Wales and the Basque Country resulting in increased production and hopefully increased jobs at that CAF factory in Newport. I wonder if you could say a little bit about that.
One other matter, First Minister, very quickly. I was lucky to go to Uganda with PONT this year, to see the Wales and Africa programme and PONT's activities in action. It's a long-standing 20-year relationship between PONT and Mbale in Uganda, and it's community to community. While I was there, I actually saw some of these attitudes towards homosexuality from the Ugandan Government challenged by people involved with the PONT charity. It's community to community, and it's about getting the right understanding and attitudes as well as the general work.

Mark Drakeford AC: As far as CAF is concerned, I was very pleased, when I was in the Basque Country, to meet the head of CAF. They are very positive about the factory that they have established in Wales, with the quality of the workforce, the welcome they've had here, the support they've had from the Welsh Government. The 77 new trains that CAF are providing, trains made in Wales for use in Wales—that contract is nearing its completion. CAF are having to divert work from other contracts in Europe to that factory to sustain it while they wait for the outcome of the paused contracts that the UK Government has responsibility for. They were expecting those contracts to be awarded, they've been suspended by the UK Government pending a review, and the danger for CAF is that they may not be able to sustain their workforce—their very highly skilled and trained workforce at Newport—pending the arrival of those contracts. So, we have written to the UK Government, urging them to resolve that matter, so the successful investment that CAF has made in the Welsh economy can be secured for the future.
I very, very much agree with what John Griffiths said about the community-to-community influence that comes from our Wales and Africa programme. And it's not just one way, Llywydd; I met the vice-chancellor of the University of Namibia yesterday. He was in the university in Cardiff reinforcing links between the two universities, amazingly grateful for everything that Wales did for Namibia during the pandemic in the supply of equipment, expertise, protective clothing, and so on. But the point I made to him—and it's the point John Griffiths was making—was these are reciprocal relationships. We benefit every bit as much as we put into the relationships we have with those parts of Africa where Wales plays its own small part.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. Here I am, a broken record, having been the lone voice in the Senedd criticising your Government's decision to send a diplomatic delegation to Qatar, and I want to pick up just that particular issue. Last month, two Qatari lawyers, Hazza and Rashed bin Ali Abu Shurayda, were handed life sentences behind closed doors for exercising their right to freedom of expression and assembly. And in March 2023, there was a further report that migrant workers in Qatar are actually suffering deteriorating conditions, and that any positive improvement has actually ceased. An ethical trade policy for us in Wales would mean not only seeking profitable investment, but also seeking partners who respect liberty and democracy. Therefore, could I ask you please to update us here in the Senedd on what you and the Welsh Government have done to enhance human rights records in Qatar and how you are monitoring that, because, sadly, reports suggest that they're actually deteriorating? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, nobody here in the Senedd would be prepared to support the sorts of actions that the Member has outlined, and nor should a visit to a country be taken as an endorsement of the standards of that country, and they never were during our visit to Qatar. In every single interview that I gave and in every single meeting that I attended, I took the opportunity to make clear the values and the beliefs that will be important to people here in Wales. And could I gently say to the Member that that's not a one-way street either, because there are aspects of Welsh life that people in Qatar would not find acceptable either? We don't have a monopoly on moral superiority in our dealings with any other country in the world. What we have done is to pursue those relationships where we feel we can make a difference.
So, when I was in Qatar, one of the things I was able to do was to visit the Museum of Islamic Art, a wonderful museum headed by a woman, the senior management team almost exclusively made up of women in positions of leadership in that part of Qatari life. And to agree for a delegation of young museum curators from Qatar to come to Wales, partly to see the way things are done here, but also to help us to make sure that our museums faithfully reflect the experience of Muslim people here in Wales. And I think if you were to go into many of our museums, you would not find the contribution of Muslim communities in Wales accurately or extensively celebrated there.
Now, I'm pleased to say that that delegation has been back to Wales; I met them when they were here only a few weeks ago. I think that their visit here to Wales will have enriched their understanding, and it certainly enriched ours. And it's by that sort of activity that we are able to make small differences in areas where the thingsthat the Member pointed to would absolutely not be acceptable to us. Do we make a difference by only talking to people with whom we agree on everything, or do we make a decision sometimes to find ways of engaging with places where there are profound differences between us, but where dialogue and exchange can make a difference?

Sam Rowlands MS: First Minister, can I associate myself with the desire to see Wales open to business from across the world? And I'm sure you will recognise that an important part of that international relation is the welcome we provide to international visitors, as well. Indeed, last year it was encouraging to see that we were able to welcome 680,000 international visitors to Wales, who were spending around £391 million.
But it strikes me that, in Scotland, there were 3.2 million visitors there, who spent £3.1 billion—about 10 times the amount of spend in Scotland from international visitors that we see in Wales. I’m sure, like me, First Minister, you recognise that Wales is not just perhaps a more accessible place to get to, but we have such a worthy heritage, culture and natural beauty that should be explored and celebrated. So, I wonder why you think we don’t see the number of international visitors come to Wales that go to some of our Celtic counterparts, and I wonder how you’ve been able to use your recent engagements to see this important and lucrative international market thrive here in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I definitely agree with what the Member has said about the importance of attracting visitors to Wales and disrupting some of the more traditional patterns that we've seen in the past. Wales is now a cruise destination in a way that it hasn't been in the past, and to give Sam Rowlands just one example of how the activity I reported in my statement leads to change, when I was in Japan, I met there with leading Japan tourist organisations. We talked particularly about Japanese visitors to north Wales. There is a new relationship between parts of Japan and Conwy, a part of the world he will be very familiar with, designed to increase the number of people who travel to Wales. Also to promote the castles that exist in Japan as well, and there's activity happening this season, this tourism season, to make sure that new flights from Manchester directly to Japan, which bring visitors into a part of the United Kingdom very convenient to visit north Wales in particular, that we draw more of those visitors to see the fantastic things that north Wales has to offer.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you for the statement, First Minister. I wanted to ask specifically about St David's Day. Clearly, I was pleased to see all of the engagement that there's been by Ministers this year, and we also saw the importance of that and the positive response in those nations where celebrations have taken place. But perhaps we should look at what we're doing here in Wales, where we still tend to be led by a number of volunteers across Wales. Clearly, the UK continues to refuse us a bank holiday on St David's Day, something I would hope the next Westminster Government would change, because we have seen the benefits, and the economic benefits, of doing that when nations such as Ireland celebrate St Patrick's Day. Now they're bringing forward another festival to celebrate the life of a woman, too. So may I ask whether there is an intention to look at what more we can do here in Wales in terms of celebrating St David's Day and promoting the international benefits of that, and also making the Welsh language central to that?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to Heledd Fychan for the question. I focused in my statement on the things that we do overseas, but of course, it is true to say that part of the international things that we try to do is to advertise and promote the things we're already doing in Wales to the wider world. And that is important on St David's Day, but to use one other example, when we prepare for Wales in France during the world cup in the autumn, one of the things that we're trying to do is not just to focus on things that we're going to be doing over in France, but also to create events and other things here in Wales where we can draw the world's attention to those things that we're doing here as part of the relationship that we are forging in that context, and to do that in the context of St David's Day, and to do it with other nations, where we can share those experiences, and there are many things that Ireland has to celebrate with us, saints and so on. That's part of the strategy, and what we are trying to do more of in future.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for the statement. I very much welcome the fact he rooted his statement in the age of the saints. We visited Ireland as a committee some months ago, and we heard there first hand about the work that's going on through the Welsh Government's offices, and we should thank the Welsh Government for the welcome we received from the office in the embassy, and also congratulate the Welsh Government on the work that's being done. I should also congratulate the Welsh Government on the work that it did in Qatar. I was in Qatar as a member of the red wall, as a supporter of our team. There were many of us there who welcomed the work that the Welsh Government did in raising the profile of Wales.
But my question is about Ukraine. I will remind the former leader of Plaid Cymru that the people of Ukraine need bullets, they need missiles, they need guns, to defend themselves from Putin's violence. They don't need warm words and flannel. And I will say this as well: I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for the work that they have done already in supporting the people of Ukraine. I'm grateful also to Mick Antoniw, the Counsel General, who has led much work, not only in this place but across Wales, in responding to Putin's invasion.
Will the Welsh Government, First Minister, continue to support the work to support the people of Ukraine, and also, particularly, the work that's being done now to promote the legacy of Gareth Jones, who first brought the suffering of the people of Ukraine in the 1930s to the attention of the world? There is considerable opportunity now for us to use the legacy of Gareth Jones to build those links between this country and the people of Ukraine.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Alun Davies for those really important points. I mentioned very briefly in my statement our ambition to be a nation of sanctuary, and nowhere have we lived out that ambition more vividly in the last 15 months than in our attempts to offer a warm welcome to people from Ukraine who look to rebuild their lives by coming here to Wales. The Welsh Government's participation in that through our welcome centres has been a huge effort in partnership with our local authorities and the third sector. Thousands of people from Ukraine are now welcomed here in Wales. They bring with them, as Alun Davies has said, a new sensitivity to the longer history of that country.
I was very pleased to be able to take part with my colleague Jane Hutt in the Holodomor event, which happened outside Cathays Park, brought to the attention of the world by Gareth Jones, and so vivid in the history of those people from Ukraine who participated in that event. As I have tried to say a couple of times, Dirprwy Lywydd, when we are able to welcome people from other parts of the world to Wales, they bring with them a new richness that contributes to our understanding of that wider world—our linked history through a Welsh person in Gareth Jones, but certainly a history that those people who have come from Ukraine bring with them, and remind us of its significance to them, but also then to us.

And finally, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First Minister, it is very pleasing to hear of the work that the Welsh Government is doing about driving inward investment into Wales. I know that, in response to the questions posed by my leader, Andrew R.T. Davies, you said that it is very important that people have the appropriate services that they need when they come to work in Wales. What we have seen is that we don't have adequate consular services here in Wales when people come to work in our country. So, I would like to know: what work is the Welsh Government doing with the UKGovernment to increase the number of diplomatic consular services here in Wales, similar to what they have in Edinburgh?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I wish that we had more consular services here in Wales. In some ways, our geography is a bit against us here. I, myself, have met over 20 ambassadors in Wales in the last six months or so. They all point out to me that Wales is a great place to make such a visit because, two hours on the train and you can have a full day's work here, and you can be back in London two hours later. So, in some ways, the fact that we are so close to London tends to argue against a full-time consular presence here in Wales.
But I did meet, only a couple of weeks ago, with the head of the UK consular service. I met him with the current Chair of the honorary consul group that we have here in Wales, and they do fantastic work. They would say to you themselves that they wish there was a full consular service. But if you can't have that, at least you can have an active, engaged, involved honorary consul, speaking up, for example, on behalf of Polish people here in Wales. Our efforts have been directed more to supporting the work of that group of honorary consuls, making sure that they play a more prominent part in our international work, that they're engaged directly with the efforts that the Welsh Government makes, that, if an ambassador comes from that country, they always come with them, and we recognise the work that they do. So, until the day when we are able to attract larger numbers of full-time consular staff to Wales, working with our very committed and, in many instances, very effective honorary consuls, is a way we can try to fill that gap.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: The Infrastructure (Wales) Bill

I thank the First Minister. Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill. And I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I stand in the Chamber today to discuss the Infrastructure (Wales) Bill before the Senedd.

Julie James AC: This Bill introduces a modern and simplified regime for the consenting of significant infrastructure projects in Wales, both on the land and in the territorial sea. Having an efficient and effective consenting regime is vital to the timely delivery of important infrastructure projects in Wales that make a positive contribution towards our social, economic and environmental prosperity and net-zero ambitions.
As well as helping to improve the competitiveness of Wales and position us as an attractive place for investment and jobs, it will offer our communities the opportunity to engage in an open and transparent consenting process to help shape developments that affect them. The proposals in the Bill support multiple commitments in our programme for government. This includes building a stronger, greener economy as we move towards decarbonisation, as well as embedding our response to the climate and nature emergency in everything we do. It will also play an important part towards supporting our commitment to deliver on renewable energy targets as we move towards net-zero emissions by 2050, by enabling the consenting of renewable energy projects in a robust but timely manner.
The need for this Bill has arisen as a result of the Wales Act 2017, which devolved further powers to Wales for the consenting of energy generation projects, overhead electric lines, ports and harbours and other infrastructure works. As a consequence of the way these powers were devolved, we've been placed into older and outdated consenting processes by the UK Government that are not fit for purpose. This has put us at a disadvantage compared to other countries in the United Kingdom. These circumstances have caused a number of problems for developers and local communities in seeking to engage in the consenting process. It also discourages investment and growth in Wales through outdated and complex consenting regimes, which are not attractive or viable options to those seeking to invest here.
To address these issues, the Bill introduces a new unified consenting process, which will apply both on the land and in the territorial sea. It will include nationally significant projects where the Welsh Ministers currently have responsibility for consenting, such as onshore and offshore energy generating stations, overhead electric lines associated with devolved generating stations, as well as works to highways and railways. By replacing multiple consenting processes with a single process, we will help attract the essential investment we need, particularly in the renewable energy sector.
To provide the best possible consenting arrangements, this Bill has been developed with several key aims in mind. Firstly, it will ensure a streamlined and unified process. This will enable developers to access a one-stop shop, whereby permissions, consents, licences and other requirements currently issued under different consenting regimes can be obtained as one package. Secondly, it will offer a transparent, thorough and consistent process, which will allow communities to better understand and effectively engage in decisions that affect them. This will provide confidence and certainty in the decision-making process, which is underpinned by clear policy that strikes the right balance between the need for infrastructure projects to help combat climate change whilst respecting our natural environment. And finally, the new consenting process will be able to meet future challenges in a timely manner by being sufficiently flexible to capture new and developing technologies, as well as any further consenting powers that may be devolved to Wales.
As we are all aware, the delivery of such ambitious aims requires input and collaboration with a wide range of stakeholders, interested parties and local communities. This is why the principles the Bill seeks to legislate for have been subject to full public consultation and developed with ongoing engagement and communications with key stakeholders. This has allowed us to gauge the appetite for a new consenting process in Wales, and to provide an opportunity for stakeholders, including the wider public, to help shape the process to the benefit of everyone involved.
Dirprwy Lywydd, turning to the detail of the Bill, I will outline some of the key elements. The Bill clearly sets out the types and size of development projects identified as significant infrastructure projects to be captured by the new consenting process to achieve an appropriate balance between consenting at the national and local levels. Significant and meaningful consultation requirements are proposed to ensure early and ongoing engagement with stakeholders and local communities, which will begin with robust pre-application consultation requirements being placed on developers. The examination and determination process by which applications are to be assessed will be proportionate and flexible, whilst ensuring decisions are made against a clear policy framework. There will also be various enforcement tools available to ensure any breaches of an infrastructure consent order, or development undertaken without the necessary consent in place, can be effectively dealt with. It is also my intention that the consenting process will operate on the basis of full cost recovery, and the Bill provides the framework to achieve this.
Members will wish to note the Bill contains several powers to make subordinate legislation, which will set out much of the procedural detail required to make the consenting process fully operational. I've considered whether this level of detail is appropriate for inclusion in the Bill. I have concluded that, in order to allow for maximum flexibility to capture any necessary changes in the future, such details would be more appropriately placed in subordinate legislation. I have included justification for these powers in the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill.
Dirprwy Lywydd, to conclude, I believe this Bill will deliver a consenting process for significant infrastructure projects that Wales deserves. I would also like to take this opportunity to express my thanks and gratitude to all those involved in the development of this Bill and the collaborative efforts made to reach this point. I look forward to working with you all as the Bill makes its way through the scrutiny process. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for bringing this here to us today. We know that the Wales Act 2017 devolved further consenting powers to Wales: energy generation stations with a capacity of up to and including 350 MW, onshore and in our Welsh waters; overhead electric lines of up to and including 132 kV that are associated with a devolved energy-generating project; and of course, consenting for harbour revision and empowerment orders. I think it's widely known that there is a need now for a more integrated and streamlined approach to infrastructure consenting. A one-stop-shop approach for major devolved projects, similar to the UK Government's development consent order process, would provide more consistent and transparent decision making, and more certainty for communities and developers alike. So, the consultation responses are really helpful. They show much support in response to the questions that have been asked of them. The consultation sets out a number of principles, which will underpin a new unified consenting process. These include basing decisions on clear policy, providing statutory time frames and streamlining the amount of consents required and strengthening the role of our local communities. And I don't think anybody can disagree with that. I just have some questions.
Could you provide, please, more information on the role of the statutory consultees? I believe that we are in agreement on the wish to strengthen the voice of local communities, but so far—. The Bill hasn't really started going, so it may be a little unfair to ask you to do this now, but if you could just respond maybe how you aim to strengthen their voice. Major infrastructure applications are, as we all know, very complex, and I know that, certainly in our community of Aberconwy, with all the renewable energy schemes that will be coming offshore, it's not wrong to say that, sometimes, residents can become a little overwhelmed. And when you mention to them, 'Oh, there's a full consultation process', trying to get them to engage can not be the easiest. So, how can we ensure that this Bill delivers a consultation process that is user friendly and that lay people can actually become fully engaged in?
Now, it is proposed to introduce optional thresholds for Welsh infrastructure projects alongside compulsory thresholds. Whereas projects that fall within the compulsory thresholds would be required to obtain a Welsh infrastructure consent, those projects within the optional thresholds would have a choice of obtaining a WIC or planning permission from the local planning authority. Now, I have been speaking to stakeholders on another issue only today, and it is clear that our LPAs are overwhelmed, certainly in terms of licensing and planning applications. There are already over 100 planning officer vacancies in Wales, and, even in the private sector, in terms of planning consultants, they're well above 100. So, at the end of the day,I do wonder how you're going to strengthen the framework so that developers know exactly who they're applying to.
Now, in light of the fact that our LPAs are taking up to 12 months now to respond to basic planning applications and to pre-planning applications, and it is taking years—planning applications that once upon a time took six to eight weeks now and are taking two to three years in some instances—will you work with us to ensure that the Bill—? Well, I can't see how it does avoid placing additional responsibilities on our LPAs. So, how are you going to ensure we've got the right skills for our planning departments to be able to handle this?
I'm pleased to see the consultation exploring ways to add fast-tracking elements for certain classes or types of work in progress. Whilst I would appreciate more information about a potential fast-tracking process, rather than applying it to certain categories, can we aim to have a consenting process that is really fast, really speedy and efficient? We need to ensure that the Bill unlocks the economic and environmental potential for Wales, removing barriers currently inhibiting efficiency. The slow pace of planning and delivery and lack of long-term plans do create inefficiencies and these are now inhibiting private investment.
Can you address the concerns raised recently by the Llywydd that the following provisions would not be within competence, because they do require the consent of the Secretary of State, our Secretary of State: section 30, pre-application consultation and publicity; section 33, notice of accepted applications and publicity; section 45, access to evidence at inquiry; section 46, payment of appointed representatives where access to evidence is restricted; section 60, what may be included in an infrastructure consent order; section 87, power to change or revoke infrastructure consent orders; section 121, fees for performance of infrastructure consent functions and services; and section 126—

Janet, you need to conclude now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: All right. Power to consult. Can you clarify how you are already working with the Secretary of State? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. So, a number of specific questions there. The statutory consultees will be consulted at pre-application stage by the applicants, and at the examination stage by the Welsh Ministers. Where they are consulted, a substantive and timely response is required from the relevant statutory consultee. The Bill gives the Welsh Ministers powers to prescribe in subordinate legislation the form and content of a substantive response and the timescale for which the response must be provided. So, that will ensure all the necessary information is provided in a timely manner. Consulted bodies will be required to provide an annual report to the Welsh Ministers on their compliance with requirements set out in subordinate legislation. The list of authorities and bodies to be identified as statutory consultees will be set out in the subordinate legislation, but it's anticipated that many of the authorities and bodies currently consulted for the developments of national significance process will also be statutory consultees for the purpose of this process.
In terms of community engagement, we think that there is significant improvement in community engagement, because it will improve the level of service for developers and improve how communities can engage with consenting for major infrastructure projects. I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, we're all familiar with a situation in which constituents wish to get engaged in a consultation process, but they are very confused about whether they're engaged in the licence consenting process or the planning consenting process or one of the other consenting processes currently existing. What this will do is take that away. It will be a single process that will result in a infrastructure consent. So, for example, on a flood defence, instead of having to consult on the harbour revision order, the marine licence, the planning application, the highways issue and so on, there will be a single application. It will make it much simpler for communities to engage and much more understandable as to what they're engaging on. It's very frustrating when you're told that something isn't a consideration for the licence and will only be a consideration at some later stage. So, I do think it will improve that very substantially.
In terms of local planning departments, all of these things are currently being processed through Welsh planning departments or through the developments of national significance. So, we're not anticipating an enormous influx of applications, only a streamlining of the process. So, I'd suggest it would take things off the local planning process, rather than put it on. I will say, Janet, planning is one of the bureaucratic back-room processes that were so trashed throughout the years of austerity. It clearly isn't; it's clearly a service that's absolutely essential to any kind of infrastructure consent. Planning departments throughout Wales have been absolutely hollowed out by the austerity process, I absolutely agree with that, but you need to take some responsibility for that.
This process in this Bill does set out a full cost recovery. We don't see why the public purse should subsidise developers who want to make these applications and, therefore, the fees, of course, will provide some income, both to the Welsh Ministers and to local planning authorities and consultees.
And then, just on the Minister of the Crown consent and working with the Secretary of State, I'm afraid that has not been a happy process. We've requested Minister of the Crown consents; they have not been very helpful about it. Just to be really clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, why they're essential: the Bill is designed to operate by conferring some responsibilities on reserved authorities, so, for example, if an infrastructure project crosses the territorial water outside the 200 mile zone or it crosses the Welsh-English border, for example, there may be a necessity for an English statutory consultee to be able to respond. So, the Bill sets out that we could require that. We need Minister of the Crown consents for that. There are ways to do it without that, but it would stop it being such a streamlined process. So, it's in the interests of UK Government, acting as the English Government, to consent to that, and we have requested those. But rest assured that the Bill is functional without it, albeit not quite so streamlined. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for this statement this afternoon and for the opportunity to respond to it. Now, as a general principle, it's good to see that steps are afoot to simplify the process for giving consent to develop infrastructure of national importance. But there are questions arising that need to be aired before we go any further.
In her statement, the Minister mentioned creating a one-stop shop for consenting, licensing and responding to other requirements. Now, this is to be welcomed, and, on the face of it, it's positive, but how will this be provided? We will need to ensure that there are no bureaucratic barriers put in place, so I'd like to know what the vision is on how this one-stop shop will look. How will this new unified system respond to the different requirements and needs in areas across Wales?
I'm pleased to read that transparency, thoroughness and consistency in the process of decision making are central to this, in order to ensure effective governance. So, what mechanism will be put in place in order to empower our communities in this process? The local planning system as it currently exists is stacked against our communities and in favour of developers, so we need to ensure that the voices of our communities are given a prominent place in this more centralised process. I'd also like to hear the Minister's response to this: how will the Minister ensure that the voice of the community is heard?
Likewise, environmental considerations are central as we develop a plan for our national infrastructure, not just in terms of environmental projects, but also the carbon used. It's good to see this at the heart of the Bill. So, will the Minister take this opportunity to explain further how the environmental considerations will play into this process?
Further to that, more often than not, the justification given for any significant development is usually economic needs. But economic needs are often entirely contrary to ecological, linguistic, environmental and community needs. So, how does the Minister anticipate that the new system will strike that balance effectively? What consideration will be given, for example, to the linguistic needs in considering major projects?
Finally, I note that there is reference in the draft infrastructure Bill to geological disposal of radioactive waste. It talks about a hole at least 150 m deep under the surface of the land or sea bed. Now, if we create the waste, then it should be our responsibility to deal with that waste, but it's interesting to note that no local authorities in Wales had offered themselves to take that UK radioactive waste. I would like to know and to understand what the rationale and science are behind this particular section of the Bill. I understand that the intention is to gather data and samples, but it's a question as to whether a depth of 150 m is sufficient, because in Finland, for example, they bury it around a mile underground, and in reality, the wisest thing probably is not to bury radioactive waste at all, because of movement in the earth's crust. So, perhaps the Minister could give as an example, so we can understand the science behind it. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. So, there are a number of things; just to say it’s an overarching answer, before I get into some of the specifics. This Bill is a process Bill. It’s about changing the process by which we consent things. It is not a policy Bill, so it is not changing any of the underlying policies that go with those processes. So, if the Welsh Government has a policy against the burial of radioactive waste, then that policy continues in force. We still must have a process for dealing with an application, but the policy stays in place, and so the application, I would suggest, would be unlikely to be successful. And that’s the same for all of the other policies. We have to have a process for the applicant to follow, but obviously, that process would have to take account of the policy. So, a number of your questions come up against that. So, we will continue to have the same policies in place; we will continue, I’m sure, to debate the policies here and so on. This process will then apply the policies in that case. So, I think quite a few of the things you asked me are about the interaction of the policy and the process thing.
I think in terms of a couple of the other specific things, the whole point of this regime is to make it simpler for communities to engage. So, it will have compulsory engagement at pre-application stage and then during the process, by both the developer and all the deciding authorities—in this case, the Welsh Ministers—and that will be enforceable as part of the process. I very seriously believe, because I’ve had this myself with my own constituents on a large number of occasions, and I’m sure you will have as well, that the single process will make it easier for people to understand what it is they can contribute by way of an objection, or wanting some improvement on it, or whatever it is. Because I’m sure—I’ve just said this in response to Janet Finch-Saunders, and I’m sure you’ve come across it as well—people say, ‘I want to object to the use of the highway for blah', and you say, ‘Well, that’s not currently in question; it’s the licence that we’re currently looking at’, and so on. People get really frustrated, and rightly so. So, that won’t happen any more, because they’ll be able to put the whole range of issues they wish to put forward in place for the one process.
The same goes for the environmental impact assessments and so on. I am very keen to get the right balance between environmental impact assessment, environmental protection, environmental restoration and enhancement, and infrastructure development—very keen indeed. So, the developers in their application—and, Deputy Llywydd, as this Bill makes its passage through our committees, I’m sure we’ll have some in-depth conversations here—the Bill currently proposes that the content of the application form and so on should be set out in regulations, and that’s so that we can update them very regularly with what we want the developers to have to put forward as part of the application. So, that would include, for example, environmental impact assessments or language impact assessments, or all kinds of other things that we do, and I would advocate very strongly that we need to be able to keep abreast of developments in that field and be able to continue to add them to the process, including, if we are successful in getting further devolution of powers, which I would very much like to see, in the territorial sea, for example, that we can seamlessly add them into the process, rather than having to go through this again.
And I think the other thing that will be able to happen is that the transparency of the process of application and the statutory consultees being able to comment on that will be much more transparent to the public and other stakeholders. So, again, it will be an enabling process that will allow people to see where they are in the process, and when they might expect to be able to see, for example, an EIA. So, I think it is very 'processy'—it’s not a policy thing—but I think sometimes, the process engenders an easier engagement, just simply because it’s easier to follow.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome this statement. Infrastructure is one of the three pillars for driving successful economic growth, along with access to finance and high-quality education. I also want to stress the importance of planning to control development and to stop blocking developments. I am pleased that the Bill introduces a modern and simplified regime for the consenting of significant infrastructure projects in Wales, both on the land and in the territorial seas. Having an efficient and effective consenting regime, I agree with you, Minister, is vital to the timely delivery of important infrastructure projects in Wales that make a positive contribution towards our social, economic and environmental prosperity and net-zero ambitions. I welcome that you're introducing a new unified consenting process, which will apply both on the land and in the territorial sea, but the question I've got is: will it make it easier for offshore wind energy to gain consent for generating, make it easier for it to join the grid, and for the necessary grid upgrades to take place?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Mike, and I agree; a streamlined process will bring many benefits. I'm not sure it's easier. It's more transparent what the process will be. It will make it much more obvious to the developer what they need to include in their initial application. It will make it easier for them to understand the costs of doing so, and what the likely mitigations necessary will be. And so, I think it will make it a more attractive place to invest. I'm not sure I would use the word 'easier', as such, because we want them to have to jump the various hurdles we put in place, but those hurdles will be obvious and transparent and they'll be able to put them into their planning process.

Jane Dodds AS: I also welcome this development. Thank you so much for outlining this and also for briefing me as well. It is something where we can see that large schemes, if scrutinised effectively and managed effectively, do hold applicants and developers to the highest possible standards. So, I can see the benefit of a streamlined and efficient and effective process, so thank you for developing this and bringing it before us here in the Senedd.
I just want to touch on one thing if I may. We rightly have ambitious targets around energy generation, and I just want to ask a specific question about local democracy and accountability. You talked, in response to Mabon, around it being processy, and I do get that, but very many people think that large developers are coming in, often riding roughshod over their local communities, extracting resources, causing years of disruption, and then going away, and we have one of those developments actually in my region in Mid and West Wales now, where communities feel quite voiceless and powerless. So, I guess my question to you is: how would you feel this actually helps local communities to have their voice heard and also makes the process transparent? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jane. I've said some of this before, but it's worth repeating, isn't it? There are improved and consistent pre-application consultation requirements incorporated in the process, on applicants of all types, for all types of infrastructure. There's a local impact report necessary, which comes from the local planning authority, which will enable them to express their very firm view. At the moment, if you have—. I'm not going to comment on any specific proposals, obviously, but if you are trying to develop an onshore energy generation system, you need a licence and planning consent for the thing itself; you need licences and planning consents for the transmission of the energy; you may need highway consents; you may need all kinds of other small licensing arrangements; you may need landlord—. You know, there is all kinds of stuff. What this does is put a single consenting process in place. So, if you have a community that's very concerned about the energy transmission arrangements, for example, they can object as part of the process. They can put their views in as part of the process. At the moment, I know people try to do that, and they say, 'Oh, that's not what we're looking at at the moment; we're currently looking at this bit.' What communities feel is that, 'Well, once they've got that bit, it's going to be much harder to object to this bit', and I have some sympathy with that. This allows a single process for the application, which means you don't have to turn concerned citizens away. They can get engaged and understand the throughput of the application. I genuinely do think that makes it easier to engage them, and you don't have this terrible kind of, 'This isn't the right time to put that forward, Mrs Jones', kind of thing, that we have had in the past.
The Welsh Ministers will be in charge of what constitutes an adequate consultation as well, which I think we will develop some case law about, I'm sure, as we go ahead, and we will have a very robust view, and I'm sure as we go through the committees, the committees will have a robust view on what constitutes decent engagement, and I'd like to see that reflected in this as the Bill goes through.I genuinely do think that the simplification of the process makes the policy ambition more transparent and makes communities much better able to engage. And then, just to say, we will continue to fund things like Planning Aid Wales, and so on, to help communities engage with the process.

Joyce Watson AC: I welcome the statement today. I think that there is a need to move forward to a modern, to a simplified, and to a much-needed regime. Lots of people have asked questions, of course, that I might have done, but Wales is facing an economicand environmental challenge on a scale that has never been the case before. In fact, all of Europe and the rest of the world are the same. And that in itself, alongside the war in Europe, has seen some real challenges in this space that we couldn't have been anticipating. But at the same time we could have the solutions here if that planning process allows those things to happen. I notice that the big infrastructure projects are the ones that are going to be captured here. So, my question is who decides what is big. Where is the criteria for that? You've answered a lot of the questions on community engagement, so I won't ask those. But are you going to align this with other policies so that we've got a spatial awareness of the impact, not just a streamlined planning process?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Joyce—a very good set of questions indeed. I completely agree with your analysis of the problem. How we're going to approach it is the Bill itself will set out, in Part 1, the types of infrastructure projects and associated minimum thresholds that are automatically captured by the consenting regime that will be set out in the Bill. The list and thresholds can be built on by the Welsh Ministers, and they reflect, as you'd expect, very much the thresholds that are in the current developments of national significance process and other consenting regimes. They've been the subject of public consultation and engagement with stakeholders to inform them as well of that list, as you'd expect, Joyce. But I take the point you make, and it's a very good one. It's one of the ones that we've had some discussion about, and I'm sure we will in the committees as well.
We absolutely recognise that, in some instances, a quantitative threshold isn't appropriate as to whether a project is of such significance and complexity that it requires consenting through this unified process. So, the Bill, in its current form, enables Welsh Ministers to issue a direction as to whether a project that is outside of the qualifying threshold is nevertheless considered to be an SIP, as it's called—a significant infrastructure project. If it doesn't meet that threshold, or we decide not, then it will go through the normal planning process as normal. It will be similar—I know, Joyce, you do this yourself—to if you are being asked by constituents for the Welsh Ministers to call in a planning application—that's where a planning application is deemed by the Welsh Ministers to be of more than local significance. A very similar process will occur to make sure that even though a project is below threshold, it might be of such importance to the economy of Wales or to the people of Wales that we think it should come through this process. So, those will be incorporated.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome the statement. The questions earlier highlighted how we need public sector funding to be able to deliver private sector as well, and I'm glad that they will be contributing to the planning process. I hope social value, maybe through energy for communities, community infrastructure levies or section 106 funding, will be tied in as well. Minister, can you outline how the Bill will simplify the consenting system in Wales? You may have covered it slightly before, but if you could elaborate a little bit further. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Carolyn. Yes, the idea is to have a full cost recovery system. I've always been a little bit baffled by why the public purse is expected to subsidise the planning or licensing applications of various private-sector individuals. We certainly want to make sure provisions exists to make sure that that doesn't happen, going forward, and that these developments pay for themselves in that sense.
The Welsh Ministers will then be in charge of the process, so any conditions—antecedent or precedent or whatever—that are necessary for this will be part of that process. So, negotiations around highways orders, harbour revision orders, all that kind of stuff, will be part of the process. The costs associated with those, and the benefits associated, will also be part of the process.
In terms of local planning authorities, these are projects that are probably being dealt with in a local planning authority at the moment as a series of very diverse applications. A flood defence, for example, in north Wales, in your region, would have gone, perhaps, through a marine consent, a planning consent, a harbour revision order consent, a highways consent, an energy diversion consent—blah, blah—whereas now, it will come through a single, unified process, and it will divert that work away from the local authority where it's an issue of such complexity.

Finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I really do welcome this statement today because of the impact that this could have potentially on us achieving our net-zero targets, but also because of the potential impact on driving those green jobs as well, energy security, and the development of some of our ports infrastructure as well, such as that in Port Talbot, Milford Haven and so on.
Minister, one of the challenges with this is getting the balance right, of course, in terms of a streamlined, unified structure. People often say, 'Why don't they get on with these things?' and then, quite rightly, people concerned with environmental impacts say, 'Yes, but we've got to get the environmental consenting right, and we've got to make sure that the public are engaged meaningfully as well'. So, what does this simplified, unified approach mean for shortening timescales on delivery of projects so that these projects are up and running, and we can hit our net-zero targets; for the environmental aspect of this in consenting in this unified approach, how we safeguard that environmental protection; and also for meaningful engagement with the public? I realise this triple stool is very difficult, but if any one of those three legs falls down, the whole stool topples over in terms of consenting.
And just to flag up as well, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I might, I'm sure all the committees will be looking at the balance between what's on the face and what the Minister once again takes into that flexibility of secondary regulations and guidance.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Huw. I did wonder whether I'd managed to slide that one past you or not.I'm sure we'll have some robust discussions about what is necessary on the face of the Bill and what is necessary for regulatory action.
You're right; the triple stool, as you rightly called it, is a tricky balance, but this doesn't take away any of the responsibilities of the developer to have put the application in in a good position. In fact, it will make it very clear to the developer what is expected by way of an application, and that application will have inside it all of the various needs for an environmental impact assessment, habitats directive assessments and so on—it will be set out very plainly.
Will it speed it up? It will speed it up once the application is in good order, but if it's necessary to monitor a habitat for a year because you need to know what the seasonal variation is, it's not going to shorten that; you're still going to have to do all of the right assessment, evaluation, monitoring and so on. It's just once you've got the information, and that information is shared in the format specified in the regulations, so we don't have nonsense arguments about, 'Well, I used a different system entirely, but it's just as good', which I've seen on multiple occasions—. It will be very clear that you use the system set out in the regulations, which is why I think they should be in regulations, by the way—get my arguments in first. And then, once the application is in and the pre-application stage is finished and all of those consultation are done, the process will be much more speedy because it will not require multiple consenting regimes to kick in. I think that's the real issue.

I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Quality Statement for Diabetes

Item 5 is next, and that's a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: quality statement for diabetes. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, as part of Diabetes Week, I have published the quality statement for diabetes, setting out the key service priorities for the development of better diabetes care across Wales.
Diabetes has a significant impact on our population. Around 7 per cent of the population is registered with a diagnosis of diabetes. That's around 207,000 people and their families affected. It's estimated that the NHS uses around 10 per cent of its budget to treat diabetes and the serious complications it can cause. The same study that was undertaken in, I think, 2012 predicted that that would rise to 17 per cent by the mid 2030s, given the likely growth in the number of people with diabetes. So, it's clearly a very serious problem for our population and the future sustainability of our NHS. We can already see how the NHS is struggling to meet increased population need for treatment and care. These pressures will only get more difficult to deal with and have yet more serious consequences if we don't act as a society, if we don't come together to address the risk factors associated with conditions such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease and cancer.
Let me be absolutely clear that type 1 diabetes, which affects around 16,000 people in Wales, cannot be prevented. People with type 1 diabetes tend to be diagnosed during childhood and have to manage through adolescence and into adulthood with vital support from our NHS. But the link between obesity and type 2 diabetes is firmly established. Without a healthy diet and appropriate exercise, obesity can lead to type 2 diabetes over a relatively short period of time. We know reducing body weight, by even a small amount, can help improve insulin sensitivity and lower the risk of developing conditions such as type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and some cancers. We know obesity and physical inactivity are more prominent in areas of greater deprivation. If we're going to avoid some really difficult decisions down the line about what the NHS can provide more broadly, then we need to address these risk factors and their determinants. This includes what we can do in Government; what local government does to enable people to live healthier lifestyles; the role of industry, and in particular the food industry; and how every single person lives their life. We must all pull in a healthier direction if we are to have a sustainable NHS.
Our approach to prevent and reduce obesity rates is set out in our 10-year 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. We've continued to invest more than £13 million between 2022 and 2024 to improve access to treatment and increase the focus of partners on prevention. We're using a mix of funding, policy and legislation to drive change.

Eluned Morgan AC: The Deputy Minister for Mental Health will be making an oral statement on 27 June, and this statement will set out our next steps with regard to price promotions on foods and where those foods are located in shops. As part of the strategy, we have also invested £1 million per year into the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme. This programme is being piloted across Wales to help those on the cusp of developing diabetes, to put a bit of distance between them and the condition. There have been more than 800 consultations through the programme, and I recently visited the programme in Cardiff and Vale, alongside Lynne Neagle, to see for ourselves how it works.
As well as this primary prevention, the quality statement for diabetes focuses on NHS support for people with the condition. It includes the development of so-called 'remission' services, where some people with a recent diagnosis can be supported through radical changes to their diets and their lifestyles to reverse the development of type 2 diabetes. The statement places a great deal of focus on good supportive care, to help people manage their diabetes well, including the delivery of routine reviews, diabetes technology and education programmes. This support will help people to avoid the serious complications of damage to the heart, kidneys, eyes and feet.
And finally, we've also included tertiary prevention, where we monitor for early signs of other disease, such as retinopathy, through the diabetes eye screening Wales service. Ultimately, our aim is to prevent people from developing type 2 diabetes, and, for those who do develop the condition, to ensure that the NHS is providing the support that people need to manage their condition as best they can. The quality statement is intended to guide the consistent planning of NHS services through the setting out of national expectations and clinical pathways of care. We will work closely with the NHS to implement this through our local planning processes. Progress will be measured through the national clinical audits for diabetes, and we will increasingly make this information public so that we can all see what progress has been made, and where we need to focus our improvement efforts. And we will ensure that these expectations are realised through the NHS accountability arrangements. Thank you very much.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for the statement today? I'm pleased that we have a quality statement for diabetes in Wales, because I think we need something for Government policy to orientate around a set of guidance or aims that will help focus policy makers in every sector to eliminate preventable diabetes. I think it is significant, isn't it, that one in 13 people in Wales live with diabetes. That's roughly the population of Wrexham, Barry, Llanelli andMerthyr Tydfil combined. So, I think that does give us some perspective of the problem at hand. And Wales is on track to see a third of its population reach obesity and 10 per cent developing diabetes. We already, of course, also have the highest prevalence of diabetes of all UK nations.
So, one of the ways to review the current level and status of care for people living with diabetes in Wales is the national diabetes audit. NDA data is a measure of the effectiveness of delivery of diabetes care against the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines. So, the data is, I think, pretty crucial in monitoring, identifying and recognising good and less good care. So, I wonder if the Minister could tell us what she expects the NDA data for this year to be. Has she any indication that Wales is now performing better and will be back to, perhaps, pre-pandemic levels at least? So, a sense of where she thinks that is or going to be.
I should also note that the NDA data does not cover children, so we are relying on the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health report. Their most recent report for England and Wales in 2022 found that incidence of type 1 diabetes increased significantly by 21 per cent in just one year, and half of children with type 2 diabetes were assessed as needing additional psychological support. Now, as I've understood it, Minister—I might be wrong here—but Wales only releases its data at health board level every 18 months. And as I've understood it, in England it is quarterly and can be seen at GP cluster level. So, I wonder if that is correct and the Minister agrees with that position. Does the Government have any plans to change the way data is released and how often we can see it, because such levels of scrutiny would be, I think, welcomed in Wales to help determine how best to improve services in Wales to ensure that people receive equal access and treatment, no matter, of course, where they live?
Last month, Public Health Wales released the latest child measurement programme for six health boards within Wales for school years 2021-22, and across five of these, the proportions of children with obesity were higher compared to the proportions reported in 2018-19. Now, as the Minister has pointed out in her statement, given the link between obesity and diabetes, I wonder if the Minister perhaps can tell us how she's working with the education Minister to communicate the links between diabetes and diets to pupils, teachers and parents. I know the Minister touched a little on that in her statement.
Moving on to the parent experience, I wonder if the Minister is confident that the new quality statement will make life easier for those already with diabetes. A survey by Diabetes UK earlier this year found that over half of its respondents in Wales experience difficulties managing their diabetes, with those from the more deprived areas more likely to have experienced such hardships.
And finally, I would like to raise the issue of technology. The survey found that technology made diabetes management, and thus life, much easier for people, but access, affordability and knowledge of these vary across health boards. We even see the healthcare professionals using paper notes and the different referral systems failing to communicate between clusters of GPs and health boards, so this means that some local health boards are unable to read the data from the newest technologies, which renders the tech, of course, useless in terms of improving virtual consultations and improving access to good diabetes management. So I wonder if the Minister can use this opportunity to commit to harmonising systems across Wales, Welsh healthcare, jurisdictions and bodies, and ensuring equitable access, funding and training to them to ensure that we do not develop a postcode lottery, which we don’t want to see. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I think the situation is very, very serious, and as a nation, we need to take this very seriously, because frankly if we don’t, the situation will be unsustainable for the NHS, and the costs will run away from our ability to pay for it. So, everybody needs to take this seriously, and what we’re trying to set out here are some expectations in terms of what those people with diabetes can expect across every health board as a quality standard, so we’ll get away from a postcode approach.
One of the things you talked about is the transparency and the access to data, and that’s certainly something that I’m interested in seeing—how can we make sure that we get more access to the data? Because I think transparency, actually, helps to shine a light on those areas that are perhaps falling behind. So, that’s certainly something that I’ve talked to my officials about.
Just in terms of where we’re at, in terms of the national diabetes audit, we’re still not back to where we were pre pandemic, so that’s not good enough and we need to see improvements. So, I am expecting the data to be better, but part of what we’re trying to do here is to make sure that everybody has a very clear understanding of what the expectations are. It has not been consistent in terms of which GPs have gone back to the national diabetes audit that is expected and that was happening pre pandemic. So, there are pockets, they’re varied, and we need to see better consistency.
Just in terms of children, of course type 1 diabetes, that’s usually actually detected whilst people are children, so we need to make sure that all of that—. It’s very different, and I think we probably should deal with it very differently from type 2 diabetes. One of the things that we do have to take seriously also is the psychological support. It’s very interesting—Lynne Neagle, the Deputy Minister, and I went to visit a project yesterday in Cardiff where we met a woman who was very, very anxious because of her diabetes situation, and the course that she’d been put on in Cardiff and the Vale had helped her not just in terms of her ability to get a better grip on weight loss and how to approach that issue, but also she’d been given psychological support, and the mental health issues that she’d been experiencing were actually alleviated hugely by the support that she’d been given.
Just in terms of the child measure programme, frankly the pandemic didn’t help; people were locked up for a long time. The cost-of-living crisis doesn’t help, and as we know, there is a larger issue in relation to obesity in more deprived areas, so the cost-of-living crisis does not help with this, frankly.
Just in terms of where we’re heading, I think self-management has got to be part of where we get to, and some of that will involve apps, some of that will involve making sure that people use technology to monitor their own health. So, I think we’re all beginning on a journey here. I think some people are way ahead on that journey in terms of their use of self-management of health issues, but we need to drive those improvements, and that is quite difficult at the moment, frankly, because we haven’t got as much money as we’d like to invest in the transformational digital space.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you to the Minister for her statement. I welcome much of what we've heard from the Minister today. There are questions as to how appropriate quality statements are in and of themselves in making a difference.What we'll be looking at now is, what happens once we have had that quality statement, in order to ensure that that quality standard is reached. Otherwise, they are only words. So, we look forward to holding the Government to account on how that quality statement will be delivered.
Hearing the statistics again from the Minister is very striking indeed. The figure of 10 per cent of all NHS expenditure being spent on diabetes is a decade and more old now, and it's possible that up to 17 per cent of the budget will be spent on diabetes by 2030. It strikes me, therefore, that there is a question around the resources pledged today, to fund the work of diabetes prevention.The Minister will well know that I am pleased to hear her talking about the preventative and the importance of that. But I was looking at figures that suggested that some 2.8 per cent of health expenditure across the EU is preventative. A report by the WHO suggests that some 3 per cent of expenditure is on preventative services in effective health services. If we think that £9 billion is spent on health, and 10 per cent of that on diabetes, well, we should be spending more than £1 million per annum on trying to prevent diabetes in the first instance. So, I would like to hear from the Minister whether this is the beginning of the journey, and whether it is the intention to ramp that figure up over time in order to ensure that we are investing in something that will bring financial benefits in years to come, never mind the health benefits.
Just a few other things. I am very pleased to see the commitment to ensuring that care is based on individual need. Providing regular support is extremely important. Research clearly shows how important that is. It is a little concerning for me that the latest statistics from the National Diabetes Audit show that less than a third—29 per cent—of people living with diabetes in Wales have received all of the crucial check-ups in 2021-22, and that is quite a bit lower than it was pre COVID. So, how confident is the Minister that that figure can be increased, and what's the plan for ensuring that those statistics are improved?
Finally, a question on technology. The quality statement makes a number of references to technology. I know how crucial technology is. A recent survey by Diabetes UK Cymru of patients who do live with type 1 diabetes say that 85 per cent had reported that technology is a great help for them in managing the condition. So, what will be done, therefore, to ensure that the technology is available to everyone in order to ensure that equitable care is provided to all those who suffer, but also to ensure that the care is of as high a quality as it can be?
Another quick word on the preventative. I welcome that. Just a few words on the Nifty 60s in my constituency, where people come together, over 60 years of age, and get substantial health benefits from keeping fit and doing exercise. Those who had type 2 diabetes previously have now found that they are no longer sufferers. That is the benefit of the preventative, and I just want to see the investment increasing as a result of that.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Just a few issues there. In terms of the quality statement, part of what we will be doing with the NHS executive is to ensure that we do monitor now that the quality statement is achieved. So, they know exactly where they should be reaching, and the role of the NHS executive will be to demonstrate that. And of course, we will have an opportunity through the IMTPs to see what they have in mind in terms of how they are going to achieve this quality statement.
With regard to resources, there is a problem when it comes to resources. There is a resources problem in the NHS at present. It's serious, and so we do have to consider every penny that we spend. You will be aware that we have just awarded a great deal of money to those who work in the NHS, and that's the right thing to do. But it does mean that there is less money available for services, and that's a challenge for us.
We have to ensure, therefore, that we do understand that this is a partnership. So, we have to do it with the public. I think that we have to reach a point where people aren't perhaps overly dependent on the services, but that we are there to help them through, holding their hand—but we're not going to do it for them. We can't do everything for people in the future; we have to do it with them. People have to take responsibility, and what we understand is that it's difficult. It's really, really difficult for many people to lose weight, and that's why we have to stand alongside them through this preventative phase to prevent type 2 diabetes from developing. So, in every health board there is a pre-diabetes programme—that's located in every health board by now. We're just starting on a journey that will have to be accelerated at some point, when we do have the funding to do so.
In terms of the national diabetes audit, I have been speaking to Diabetes UK about this. I do think that we have to improve the number of check-ups that have taken place, but chronic condition management is part of the core element of the GMS contract. So, that's another opportunity for us.
With regard to the technology, I am very eager, because I do think that this is an opportunity for us to release many people who work in the NHS. If we get people to help themselves through the technology, that's going to release people to do other things. Our problem, once again, is that we are financially challenged at present, and that is an issue for us.
So, I do think that there is a great deal that communities can do—so, things like the Nifty 60s. It's not just good for people's physical health, it's really good for people's mental health and for seeing communities coming together. So, I'm eager to see a great deal more of that happening in our communities.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'm very grateful to the Minister for this very welcome statement today, and, as chair of the cross-party group on diabetes, it's really positive to hear the focus Welsh Government is giving to diabetes, the measures being taken and the expectations to address the needs of many who are living with diabetes. The Minister has already outlined the scale of the challenge ahead of us and the scale of the problem for people living with diabetes.
Earlier this year, Diabetes UK asked people living with diabetes to complete a survey as part of the Diabetes Is Serious campaign, and it's good to see that this quality statement reflects many of the concerns raised by respondents in Wales, including on equity, psychological support and the need to utilise technology. I'm glad to see those recognised today.
This statement builds on the good work already happening in the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme, the remissions programme—they're all deserving of recognition, but what's always clear, through every campaign or meeting we have as a cross-party group, is the importance of early diagnosis and early engagement. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to do all we can to promote the knowledge about the signs of diabetes, the difference between the types of diabetes and the risks that lead to type 2 diabetes? It must be reiterated that asking for support is important, whether for type 1 or type 2 diabetes, and people should engage as early as possible if they have symptoms of type 1 or type 2 diabetes. Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Jayne, and thanks very much, in particular, for your work with the cross-party group on diabetes. I think it's really important having these cross-party groups, because it does bring pressure to bear on us as Government Ministers, and I actually welcome that. I think it's important that we're held to account.
I'm really pleased that we've been able to respond to some of the points made by people across Wales, and some of the things I outlined in my presentation, psychological support—it's really serious. People get very upset, and we need to be there and we need to give them that support. Technology and equity—I think all of those are well understood.
So, early diagnosis—I think you're absolutely right, and part of what we have to try and expose is, as you say, what are the early signs. What are the early signs? What should people be looking out for? And also do people really understand the risks? Having diabetes—right, okay, well, I've got to start doing this, that and the other. Actually, the consequence of not managing it properly can be quite serious.
Now, I do think it's really important we distinguish between type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes, and there's another type of diabetes, which is quite rare, that very few people talk about, and, obviously, we recognise that as well. So, I think promoting and helping people to understand those early signs of diabetes is probably not a bad idea, and I'll go back and ask what more we can do in that space. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm very grateful to the Minister for bringing this quality statement for diabetes forward today, and she just touched in her previous answer around the more rare form of diabetes, type 3c. I declare an interest, Dirprwy Lywydd, as my father was diagnosed with type 3c diabetes following a nasty bout of necrotising pancreatitis, one of the causes of type 3c diabetes. And back in October of last year, I used a business statement to call for a statement to be brought forward specifically on raising clinical awareness about type 3c diabetes and how individuals living with the condition can be supported, and I remember the Minister nodding along as I asked that question and when the Trefnydd answered as well, and she's nodding along today, and I'm grateful for that, and it's often misrepresented as being another type of diabetes, when, in fact, it's its own type. And while there is no specific mention of type 3c diabetes in this statement—and I'm not expecting the Minister to give a full answer, given the rarity of it; approximately 8 per cent of all diabetes sufferers are type 3c diabetes sufferers—could I just get, possibly, a written statement from the Minister, just focusing on type 3c diabetes and what the Welsh Government is doing to support those patients living with that form of diabetes? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. As I mentioned in the point I made to Jayne, we absolutely recognise that there is a third pillar that people don't talk about so much, and I was very grateful to you for bringing that debate to the floor of the Chamber, and that gave us an opportunity to air that issue and, certainly, I know that that is something that is recognised by experts in the field, and that again—. I think it's slightly different from the kind of enormous challenge that we have in relation to the more general, type 2 diabetes. That's where the major, major challenge is for our nation and for our NHS, and that's why I've concentrated today on those areas. But the quality statement itself covers all three types of diabetes.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I really welcome in particular your emphasis on good supportive care. This can make all the difference in ensuring that the one in 14 people in Wales with diabetes can best manage their condition. Yesterday, I was fortunate to meet with the Cwmbach Diabetes UK group at their information stand in Ysbyty Cwm Cynon. They do excellent work in raising awareness of what it's like to live with diabetes, helping break down barriers by offering a friendly face for anyone newly diagnosed with this condition and supporting self-management strategies. Minister, will you join with me in paying tribute to these volunteers, and how do you imagine such local groups fitting into your vision of improved care and support, particularly in terms of offering that peer support mentioned in the quality statement?
I was also able to have a catch-up about the work of the all-Wales diabetes patient reference group, chaired by my constituent Wendy Gane MBE, who I know have contributed to the development of this statement. The value of the patient reference group is paramount in ensuring that diabetes services and resources are co-produced with people who have diabetes. This completely chimes with the person-centred approach set out in the quality statement, so how will you ensure that the patient reference group and the lived experience of its members are an integral part of this process moving forward?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and I'd like to thank Vikki for her work, and it just amazes me, Vikki, how you manage to get around so many community groups. Almost every time you speak, you've just been to see somebody in relation to that, so you've done it again. So, thank you very much for that, and thank you also to the people in that Cwmbach community diabetes group, because I actually think that having groups come together, sharing their experience—. I think people can encourage each other, and there are lots and lots of examples where some people have managed to get their diabetes into remission through catching it early enough. And that's the space for the big win here, I think, is to really try and catch it early. But if you do have a more advanced form, then self-management is going to be key, because if you aren't managing it well, then that is more likely to lead to more difficult and more complicated health issues.
So, this quality statement is very much focused on the NHS, what is the NHS's responsibility. So, really, this bit isnot about communities; that's more covered in the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' approach, which is understanding that there's a broader issue for us all as a society to understand what our responsibilities are, and, as I said, Lynne Neagle will be making a statement very soon on the kind of environment that encourages, frankly, people to eat a lot of junk food, food that we know is not healthy, not good for us, and I know that she will be making a statement in the next few weeks about that.
We very much valued the work and the input of the diabetes reference group into developing this programme. That's partly why we've got this person-centred approach. I think what's going to be important moving forward is that we make sure that that voice continues to be heard. Now, we have got this new organisation, Llais, which is the voice of the public in relation to the interaction and the voice of the patient in relation to the NHS, so I'm hoping that they'll find a way through that mechanism, and, if they're not satisfied with the services that they've got, that they will use that as a method to go in.

And finally, Joel James.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive statement today about the future of diabetes care in Wales. As you may recall, I recently brought up in this Chamber with the First Minister the SEREN programme, which is an accredited and structured education programme for children and young people with type 1 diabetes, which has been developed in Wales to help with the transition from primary to secondary education. The First Minister responded to my question by saying that, and I quote, the
'NHS Executive has been asked to look at how best to sustain the programme'
and that the health Minister
'will be making an oral statement on the future of diabetes services and these new arrangements in front of the Senedd in June.'
I recognise that in point 18 of the quality statement it mentions that health boards will provide
'at regular intervals an accessible structured diabetes education programme',
but the statement and yourself haven't specifically mentioned the SEREN programme. With this in mind, and given the success of the programme, especially in delivering a reduction in HbA1c levels and the dedication shown by staff who have developed and implemented the programme, I'm keen to know whether it is your intention to fund the SEREN programme going forward, and, if so, if that is more long-term funding. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Joel. There's a reason why I haven't mentioned the SEREN programme, and that's because this is an NHS quality statement. The SEREN programme is very much an education programme for children and young people, so it's not directly NHS in that sense, and that's why I haven't mentioned it directly.
We recognise that, actually, there is a huge amount of work that we need to do in different areas to bring this to people's attention, but this quality statement is very much an NHS statement, rather than the broader approach, and some of that will be already covered in the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' programme and will be perhaps covered in the statement that the Deputy Minister will be making very soon.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Refugee Week, 19-25 June—Compassion

Item 6 this afternoon is the statement by the Minister for Social Justice on Refugee Week, 19-25 June—compassion. I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt, to make the statement.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Next week marks the twenty-fifth anniversary of Refugee Week and we will once again celebrate the contributions sanctuary seekers make to Wales. Refugee Week brings together people from all backgrounds to create better understanding within our communities and promote integration and equality for all.
Refugee Week reminds us of the courage and resilience of those who must leave their family, friends and home to escape persecution or war. We continue to hear brutal stories of the effect of Putin's illegal actions in Ukraine, as a stark and high-profile example of this, and we continue to stand strong with the Ukrainian people. But many of those forced to flee to the UK are also being persecuted simply for being who they are, and sanctuary seekers often have harrowing and complex histories of abuse precipitating their arrival here.
This year's theme is 'compassion'. Compassion has long been a part of Welsh culture. In 1914, 16,000 people crossed the channel in one day to escape the horrors of the first world war. Wales welcomed 4,500 Belgians fleeing that conflict. From the 1930s, Jewish refugees arrived in the UK fleeing the racial and religious hatred that ultimately culminated in the Holocaust. Aberystwyth University has recently undertaken excellent research documenting the experiences of the Kindertransport children in Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: More recently, in 2016, every Welsh local authority provided sanctuary for Syrians needing to come to Wales. In 2021, we worked hard to support evacuations from Afghanistan, forging a pioneering approach with Urdd Gobaith Cymru, local key stakeholders and the UK Government to ensure we could accommodate sanctuary seekers in the shadow of this very building. We believe around 1,000 to 2,000 Hong Kongers have come to Wales fleeing the Chinese state's national security law since the new visa pathway was opened in 2021.
Since February 2022, our nation of sanctuary vision has reached significant new heights. For the first time ever, the Welsh Government has directly sponsored the visas of 3,100 Ukrainians who have travelled to the UK, with 1,500 individuals with visas remaining outside the UK but having the peace of mind of knowing that they can come to safety if they need to. More importantly still, Welsh households have thrown open their doors and their hearts to those needing to escape. Over 3,600 Ukrainians came to the UK, sponsored by Welsh individuals, and many more households are hosting Ukrainians informally. Households have put into practice the vision we have for Wales, and this has truly been the nation of sanctuary in action.
I can update today that £8 million has been confirmed by the UK Government for Wales to support Ukrainian integration, and Ukrainians can continue to use their driving licences for the duration of their stay in the UK.
Dirprwy Lywydd, as this brief summary shows, across waves of resettlement, Welsh communities, local government, third sector and other key partners have worked tirelessly to support asylum seekers coming to Wales from all over the globe. Wales has shown, time and again over the last century and more, that there is a welcome in the hillside. Of course, despite our pride in these immense efforts, there’s more to be done to support those arriving and the communities that receive them. We're very alert to the rise of the far right, and we know that Wales is not immune to the hatred and intolerance we've seen elsewhere. Even here we’ve seen protests outside accommodation sites, and I want to reiterate clearly that there is no home for hate in Wales.
We are privileged to offer sanctuary to those who arrive in Wales. In January 2019, we launched our nation of sanctuary plan and, since then, I've been truly heartened by the response across Wales. The city of sanctuary charter has guided organisations in many sectors, supporting the overarching nation of sanctuary vision. Next week, I'll meet schools that have achieved school of sanctuary status, including children from two schools in Cardiff. I'm welcoming them on the steps of the Senedd to welcome them as part of the walk of peace. And I'd like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to the schools, colleges, universities, towns and cities of sanctuary in Wales for the dedication and enthusiasm that has been shown in their time as pillars of sanctuary within their communities. I applaud the work of the City of Sanctuary charity that supports and endorses these organisations in Wales.
We know there is more to be done to support people seeking sanctuary, and that is why I've committed to refreshing our nation of sanctuary plan this year. We will work closely with partners, including sanctuary seekers, public authorities and the third sector, to ensure the revised plan sets a clear framework for improvement in the coming years.
We've seen many stories this year about small boat crossings, and whilst I agree that perilous journeys like this must be avoided, it is inaccurate to claim that the UK Government's current plans are the only way to address this issue. Although crossings increased in 2021 and 2022, a large part of the reason for accommodation being overwhelmed is the Home Office's processing delays. Over 130,000 cases across the UK are waiting, pending an initial decision. This means people who are often highly skilled and motivated to contribute to our economy and integrate with communities are left waiting in limbo for years.
The compassionate thing to do would be to process claims far more quickly and allow the right to work where claims take longer than six months. We, as a Government, have called on numerous occasions for safe routes to be established, so that people can legally claim asylum in the UK, putting an end to the waste of human potential for those already here. And I've already set out a more compassionate way in a written statement on 31 March. I hope all Members will agree that such an approach is necessary for a nation of sanctuary.
We’re seeking urgent improvement from UK Government in relation to each of the asylum and dispersal schemes operating in Wales. I'm meeting with the Minister for Veterans' Affairs to discuss Afghan hotel closures, and I've written to the UK Minister for Immigration to seek better engagement and respect for devolution under the asylum system.
Finally, I want to just note that 22 June marks 75 years since HMT Empire Windrush docked in Tilbury, the moment that symbolises the Windrush generation. Those arriving on the Windrush and the ships that followed were not fleeing war or persecution, they were invited to come to the UK. It is essential that the UK Government reverses its decision to renege on implementing the Windrush lessons learned review recommendations, or else soundbites about 'seeing the face behind the case' will ring entirely hollow. However, like sanctuary seekers, the Windrush generation brought skills, talent, new ideas and hard work to enrich our communities. Their stories are Welsh stories, and they have helped make us who we are as a nation today. Deputy Llywydd, we have allocated funding for Windrush events to take place throughout Wales, with a celebration here in the Senedd on 22 June. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood AC: Refugee Week falls on 19 June to 25 June. As we've already heard, 2023 also marks the twenty-fifth anniversary of Refugee Week. Refugee Week is the world's largest arts and culture festival, celebrating the contributions, creativity and resilience of refugees and people seeking sanctuary, founded in 1998 in the UK and held every year around World Refugee Day on 20 June. The theme of Refugee Week 2023, as we've heard, is compassion, chosen in the belief that, together, we can create a shared understanding of compassion to ensure we're extending it widely to all.
Responding to your previous statements on both Ukraine and the nation of sanctuary, I repeatedly raised the issue of housing, and proposed modular housing as part of the solution, as across the water in Ireland. In your response to me on 9 May, you referred to the need to remove our Ukrainian guests into longer term accommodation, some of which is modular accommodation developed across Wales. So, what, if any, specific allocation is being provided for refugees?
Further, now that the £150 million fund to help Ukrainians into their own homes has been formally announced by the UK Government, including the £8 million for Wales that you referred to, will the Minister confirm how this will be allocated and whether it will be distributed via the Welsh Government and/or to councils to help Ukrainian families into private rented accommodation and find work, as in England?
As I restated to you in my reply on 9 May,
'we've long provided a safe haven for victims of persecution, violence, ethnic cleansing and genocide from across the world, and long may that remain the case, because if we ever lose that, we'll have lost our humanity and true identity.'
In this context, how does the Minister respond to this week's report from the Home Affairs Committee in the UK Parliament—cross party, but chaired by a Labour MP—which found little evidence to indicate significant numbers of Albanian nationals at risk in their own country and requiring asylum in the UK, although, and this is critical,
'some Albanian citizens making asylum claims will have been trafficked, and women are disproportionately at risk from this form of crime. The UK has an obligation to support trafficking victims and they should only be returned to Albania if appropriate safeguards are in place'?
How do you respond to the deal announced last Thursday to overhaul the EU's asylum processes—clearly, we're not part of them, but they're on our borders—ensuring that certain asylum seekers get processed immediately at the border, making it easier to return those whose applications are rejected, and allowing countries to stop processing people at the border if they reach a certain limit?
Responding to you on 9 May, I referred to concerns raised by residents of Northop Hall, Flintshire, over plans to house 400 single male asylum seekers in the former Northop Hall country house hotel, where the chair of Northop Hall community council had stated:
'400 single males will increase the total population of the village by 25 per cent. I can't believe there will not be a drain on community facilities which are already over extended.'
With only three bus services in the village daily, people would have nowhere to go.
In your response, you stated that, although the Welsh Government is not responsible
'for the procurement and provision of accommodation for those who are dispersed to Wales',
this will have to go through the planning process in Wales, and you were in dialogue with the UK Government regarding the dignity and respectthat should be accorded to asylum seekers fleeing war and persecution. Later this month, at their request, I'll be meeting the Northop Hall Village Action group, for them to brief me on what is being proposed for their village and on their concerns about inadequate infrastructure and that this is the wrong place for asylum seekers to be placed while they're being screened. So, what message would you like me to give them regarding your engagement with this, as the Minister here?
When I last visited Mold Jobcentre Plus, I learned about the great work they were doing supporting Ukrainians keen to work and contribute. In this context, can you provide an update on English for speakers of other languages courses—ESOL—and on the transferability of their qualifications to Wales?
Finally, you conclude by referring to the Windrush generation. With 22 June marking 75 years since HMT Empire Windrush dockedin Tilbury, let us therefore remember that their arrival marked a seminal moment in Britain's history and has come to stand for the rich diversity of the UK family of nations. Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for acknowledging the history of Refugee Week. It is the twenty-fifth anniversary of Refugee Week, and recognising the importance of the theme of compassion.
Just picking up as many points as I can from your questions, in terms of the move-on, which is progressing at speed—the move-on of our Ukrainian guests who come to Wales—it is encouraging to see the latest figures. Latest figures show that of those arriving under the supersponsor route, over 1,700 have now moved on into longer term accommodation, with over 1,000 of those settling within Wales. It is very important—and this was acknowledged earlier on in relation to the response to the international relations statement—that move-on and support for our guests—indeed, for all our asylum seekers and refugees—is very much a part of the team Wales approach, working with local authorities to play their part.
Can I say today, again, thank you to our local authorities in Wales—and I'm sure you would join me, and Members would join me in that—for delivering that Ukrainian humanitarian response, and for the fact that we have made funding available, through the transitional accommodation capital programme, made available as a result of the Minister for Climate Change's initiative, to ensure that there are investments in transitional accommodation? Nine hundred and thirty-six properties were funded under the transitional accommodation capital programme—additional homes funded for this year and into next year. And it's a range of accommodation solutions across Wales, not just modular housing, but also bringing void or mothball properties back into use, converting buildings, demolition, and new build as well. It is important that we see this in the context of the findings of the Local Government and Housing Committee report on housing Ukrainian refugees, which was published earlier on this year, and the fact that the Welsh Government has committed to support the move, particularly the move-on into longer term accommodation, with an additional £40 million investment over the next financial year.
There are important points that you raise in your questions about the fact that we have an asylum and resettlement policy, which I do not believe can succeed unless we have, as I've laid out, those safe and legal routes. Indeed, the Home Secretary has said herself the asylum system is broken. But, if it's to change, it's the UK Government that's got to reverse its hostile environment strategy and develop those sufficient safe and legal routes for asylum seekers. And to claim asylum from outside the UK is to negate that need for perilous journeys and disrupt the business model of people smugglers, which is still obviously having an impact in relation to the questions that you raise, and it does include those from Albania.
As we were saying, if we have safe and legal routes, that would include effective return agreements for those with invalid claims. But exceptional process is crucial for us as a nation of sanctuary, to ensure asylum can still be claimed within the UK in exceptional circumstances, and processes that function efficiently. I think that's where we needto break the business model of people traffickers and smugglers. I do welcome the House of Commons Home Affairs Committee's recommendations, including a proposal for a pilot processing facility in Wales. Why is the UK Government not working and spending their money and resources, and policy, on those safe and legal routes, and also looking at the asylum system in terms of the unacceptable delays? There are 160,000 cases pending decision. This is where we also look to what this actually means now in terms of the handling and the management of what is contingency accommodation for asylum seekers.
I think it's really important we don't comment on specific sites proposed for asylum accommodation, but we know that the issues that are arising as a result of proposals coming forward are as a result of a lack of engagement or clarity from the Home Office, a lack of multi-agency engagement, which is crucial in order to ensure that we can welcome and integrate. Because we do support the ambition of widening asylum dispersal in Wales, and it is the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities that are working together to deliver this. But we cannot do this unless the Home Office works constructively with us. As I said, I've written to Robert Jenrick about this to seek a better way of working in Wales, and also working with Welsh local authorities as far as this is concerned.
Also, it's in my statement that the UK Government should recognise its dependency on devolved Governments and the role of devolved nations and their local authorities to adequately deliver its various schemes and acknowledge their longstanding support. Again, I would say—as I said previously, Mark—we won't comment on matters relating to planning, but what we call on from the UK Government is better effective engagement and recognition that they have the responsibilities that they have. They have been derelict in their responsibilities in terms of the asylum system for so long.

Sioned Williams MS: I want to associate myself and Plaid Cymru wholly with the comments made by the Minister regarding the fact that asylum seekers and refugees are not statistics or a media topic but people, all of whom have had difficult journeys and experiences. They are our brothers and sisters,ein brodyr a'n chwiorydd. Compassion, the theme of this year's Refugee Week, is defined as a feeling of pity, of sympathy and of understanding for someone who is suffering. To act on that compassion is the basis of all humanitarian action.
Following Russia's barbaric and illegal invasion of Ukraine and millions forced to flee their homes, many Governments and ordinary people across the world embraced the challenge of providing sanctuary for this new group of refugees in their nations, including, of course, here in Wales. And Minister, I echo your thanks to the local authorities, organisations like Urdd Gobaith Cymru, and families and communities throughout Wales for the welcome they've provided. But this collective and impressive demonstration of compassion for Ukrainian refugees has also revealed much about the nature and limits of this compassion. We have seen tensions and questions arise about the way we treat some types of refugees as opposed to others. Some are being viewed by some politicians and the press as more deserving than others.
The Arithmetic of Compassion project aims to raise awareness of how this occurs, and its effect on our humanitarian decision making. The researcher and co-creator of the project, University of Oregon psychologist Paul Slovic, has shown that the larger the number of people that are in need, the less inclined we often feel to help them. Dr Slovic says our feelings engage most strongly when one person is in distress. Two people in distress doesn't concern us twice as much. Once we get up to the tens of thousands, they're just numbers. Researchers like Dr Slovic say we need to understand this response that our compassion for large numbers of people in trouble shrinks when we start to feel overwhelmed, to ensure all those in need of our compassion and support receive our compassion and support.
The rhetoric of Conservative Members both here in Wales and in Westminster has fuelled rather than aimed to combat this emotion-driven response—shamefully, and for cynical political ends. The UK Government's cruel policies against refugees show no compassion, from housing refugees in prison-style barges and disused military camps, to forcing asylum seekers to share cramped hotel rooms, or eventual deportation to Rwanda—there is seemingly no bottom to this barrel. The recent plans announced, without consultation, to accommodate 200 asylum seekers across 77 rooms in the Stradey Park Hotel in Llanelli is an example of policy not led by compassion, but by an inhumane approach to others’ situations. No empathy, no understanding, no support.
Plaid Cymru shares the aim for Wales to become a nation of sanctuary, and we’re wholly committed to easing the experience of migrants and people seeking asylum. Carmarthenshire has always been a welcoming authority, and this has been exemplified in their support for many resettlement programmes, including, as you mentioned, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine and now general asylum seekers. However, as the Welsh Refugee Council and Carmarthenshire council have stated, placing refugees in hotels is not a suitable option. It is their needs that must be central to the question here, and Plaid Cymru condemns the undermining of their ability to feel welcome and play a full role in the community by use of measures like these.
So, does the Minister agree that the UK Government has failed to engage adequately with local authorities and the Welsh Government and the needs of refugees and asylum seekers with plans like these, and that it’s completely lacking in compassion? And what assurance is the Welsh Government receiving from the UK Government regarding the well-being of refugees and asylum seekers within these types of plans? Would a number of sites within the community with ways to access key services be a more effective way of accommodating those who we are trying to help and those who are trying to help them? And is there scope for the Welsh Government to call on the UK Government to enter into dialogue with the Welsh Government and the Welsh Local Government Association to try and find an all-Wales solution where we can develop a more dispersed model of supporting asylum seekers and refugees?
And finally, does the Minister agree with the need for immigration to be devolved, so that Wales can adhere to its goal of being a nation of sanctuary? No amount of refreshing our nation of sanctuary plan while we are tied to Westminster Governments of every colour is going to achieve that. They are going to always sacrifice compassion on the altar of electoral gain.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. As you say, Wales is a nation of sanctuary. Thank you for enlightening us with that research from the University of Oregon. I look forward to looking at that. We have to learn from the evidence of how we can be truly a nation of sanctuary, even with the limits of our powers, but we will take more responsibility over and above our powers. We know that. We want to do all we can to provide that warm welcome in the short term, and ensure that our communities are enriched by skills and experience in the very near future. It has been so extraordinary in terms of the history in Wales of that welcome in the last decade or so. I have also talked about the welcome for our Syrian, Afghan and Ukrainian refugees in enriching communities, households, schools, all the sectors. And isn’t it important? This is something that I really want to endorse today.
The City of Sanctuary UK charity, which actually has come under attack from Welsh Conservatives, actually has schools, universities, colleges, towns, communities all over Wales signing up to it, and also, in England, Conservative councils as well, and the local authorities network. I condemn that attack, because that stirs up misunderstanding about the charter. Again, I draw attention to it in my statement, because we applaud this—this is a charity that is working so hard—because it actually enables people to understand the great strength of being a nation of sanctuary at every level. I hope colleagues will join me in welcoming these schools. St Mary the Virgin school down the road, a Church in Wales school, which is very integrated, multifaith, has got a whole week of events, and it’s just on our doorstep, and some of them will be coming. They are actually celebrating the fact that they have a school of sanctuary award, and we should be celebrating them here today, as I’m sure we will.
But I just want to say, in terms of your point, this is about the fact that we are held back by the UK Government, by the Home Office, particularly in terms of how we support asylum seekers who’ve been placed in contingency hotels in Wales. They’ve arrived either directly, or they will be arriving, from the Manston processing centre or another contingency hotel in London. They're not in receipt of any formal support under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. They are provided with meals. Eight pounds a week they are provided with in support for basic supplies, and that payment has been continued, but not everyone is provided with that funding. The British Red Cross, the Welsh Refugee Council—we support both those organisations, we fund them—have been helping them.
This is where your response and questions to me are so important in terms of the responsibility that we have. We are taking those responsibilities with our local authorities to ensure that we can do our best in terms of these circumstances. But unless the Home Office work constructively on a multi-agency basis with our local authorities, with the health boards, with the police as well, the third sector—they're all there waiting, wanting to engage in order to play their part—then we will have this rise of tension and lack of community cohesion.
But I thank you for those comments, for your support for what we're doing, and I do, again, urge all Members in this Chamber to recognise that this is a failure of the UK Government immigration policies. We will do what we can in terms of our powers, our responsibilities, our funding, as we have done, for everyone who seeks help and is welcome here in Wales.

John Griffiths AC: I very much support Wales as a nation of sanctuary, and I'm pleased to say that it has been embraced by Newport City Council, local schools and local communities. Newport is diverse and home to a significant number of asylum seekers and refugees. I'm sure, Minister, you would agree with me that we should be grateful to those hosting people fleeing conflict and persecution, for example the family in Langstone in my constituency who are providing refuge to a young Ukrainian woman and are very positive about the experience. As well as very much cherishing their friendship with her, the family are very positive about the experience for their own daughters—as they say, giving them greater appreciation of all they have, improving their social skills, having learnt to share their home with another person outside of their immediate family, teaching them empathy and compassion, and how even a small act of kindness can have a significant impact. They are so pleased they were able to help this young Ukrainian woman, and will always consider her as part of their family.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths. I don't really have to respond more than to say that your statement has been very powerful. I do congratulate Newport for being a city of sanctuary, and I look forward to coming and visiting a school in Maindee next week.

Jane Dodds AS: On Friday evening, I will be presenting awards to the local refugee group and the winners there of a poetry and literature competition. I'd like to praise and commend Powys County Council, as well as all of the other councils across Wales, who've welcomed so many refugees and have, actually, made such an effort to include them. The theme around compassion is so important this year, isn't it?
I just want to touch on age-disputed young people. This is a group that people are really anxious about and really don't cover. I worked with them for over 6 years. And I just really want to highlight how important it is for us to remember that the current Illegal Migration Bill actually says that those age-disputed young people could be locked up, which includes many victims of trafficking. Robert Jenrick, in November 2022, said 20 per cent of adults who arrived in the UK wanted to claim that they were children, and yet Home Office data last month actually showed that it was only 1 per cent—totally wrong figures, which actually joins in with the whole debate and attacks on our refugees and our asylum seekers. I hope you'll join with me, Minister, in saying how important it is that all of us have the facts correct and at our fingertips and that we support those young people, particularly age-disputed young people. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I thinkall parts of Powys, but Powys council—.I'm very aware of the Hay, Brecon and Talgarth sanctuary for refugees, in terms of recognising that great warmth, support and response that we see in every part of Wales in terms of those awards that you will be giving next week.
Next week, we will have an LCM debate on the Illegal Migration Bill. You've already seen my statement. We can't support a Bill that the UN Refugee Agency has described as amounting to an asylum ban, which would breach the refugee convention. Indeed, I do draw Members' attention to the Houses of Parliament Joint Committee on Human Rights, which published their report last week. They've concluded
'that various provisions of the Bill are not compatible with the Convention or with numerous other binding legal obligations on the UK.'
Now, this is a cross-party group, across Westminster Parliament and the House of Lords, with Conservative members, with an SNP chair, and with Labour, Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru engaged. What's really important about my LCM, and our officials are already preparing for that, is we don't support any diminution of the lead role, professional role, for our social workers in assessing what's in the best interest of children. We've asked for information about training immigration officers in terms of assessing age in line with Welsh social services and, most importantly, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. There's never been a response, and we're very concerned about the fact that this could diminish our existing Welsh national duties, because we look after and treat all unaccompanied asylum-seeking children as looked-after children. It's in line with our Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, as well.
So, that's something that we will obviously be debating next week, and I know that this is something where we feel that the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child is being blighted by this as well as, obviously, in terms of the flouting of the UN Refugee Agency.

Joyce Watson AC: Language is really important here. We need to talk about people, not stats, so when we talk about people who are seeking asylum, they are often referred to as 'illegal migrants' and that's where we need to draw the separation. So, when the Tories are bringing through an illegal immigration Bill, they're doing just that, they're deliberately putting that wedge there. They're stoking tensions and creating a hostile environment, scapegoating traumatised people. That deflects then from their own failures in this space, which is, actually, to produce some safe passage, to deal with the huge backlog of asylum claims.
I know, Minister, that you're across the situation in Llanelli, and that you've met with the leader of Carmarthenshire council yesterday about the Home Office plans to place 207 vulnerable people into 77 rooms at Stradey Park Hotel, and they haven't got the proper support. So, what's happened is staff are worried about their jobs, local businesses are worried about economic knock-on effects, and residents about the lack of funding. They are legitimate concerns that can be addressed with proper communication. What is not legitimate is—

Joyce, you need to ask a question now, please.

Joyce Watson AC: I will do—intimidation by far-right thugs spreading misinformation and hate. We need compassion. So, can I ask you, Minister—I know you've been in touch with the UK Government over this—have you had any more information from the UK Government, or are we all supposed to just wait until they deign to give us a response?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Joyce Watson. Thank you very much for those key points, and we will be debating the Illegal Migration Bill. I've made quite clear our opposition to the Illegal Migration Bill. Not only does it go against the UN Refugee Agency in terms of the human rights convention, it's not compliant with it—even the Home Secretary recognised she can't say that the Bill's compliant with the human rights convention—but also, it's unworkable. It will actually continue to leave many people in limbo, it'll undermine other Home Office priorities to prevent illegal working or modern slavery within the UK.
Now, I have laid out in my statement, again, of 31 March the safe and legal routes way in which we can address—and the way in which the UK Government should be addressing—and I think it's also important for us to remember that it has been done before. The Home Office should reconsider its withdrawal from the Dubs scheme, for example. You all remember the Dubs scheme. That was a safe route prior to the UK leaving the EU, and the UK Government could reintroduce a scheme like the Dubs scheme, which is really important in terms of the questions that are being asked about vulnerable unaccompanied children. They could come to the UK safely. We've actually got a Ukraine eligible minors scheme that provides a model. That was developed by the UK Government, so they've got a model now that they could use for a more effective version of the Dubs scheme. But the number of decisions by the Home Office—in 2021, of the 50,000-plus applications, only 1,400-plus initial decisions were made. So, it's no surprise that there's a lack of available dispersal, accommodation and bed spaces available. And yet, they come up with schemes such as the scheme in terms of the so-called Rwanda scheme, which is just immoral, I think, as the Archbishop of Canterbury has described it, who's actually leading the amendments in the House of Lords against the Illegal Migration Bill. That's the sort of moral horror that has been described about the Illegal Migration Bill.
But I will say that I'm doing everything I can to work with the authorities who are engaged in those particular circumstances that you and other Members have revealed today, because of the failure of the UK Government to deal with this appropriately and responsibly.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Minister, diolch for your statement today, and I echo the comments of my colleague Sioned Williams. I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to someone who you know very well and I know very well, and I speak, of course, of our friend, the Reverend Aled Edwards. He has recently retired from his role at Cytûnand as a board member and previous chair of Displaced People in Action, and I was privileged enough to be able to work alongside him in both those roles.
His commitment, compassion and dedication to the plight of refugees and asylum seekers over the decades has been immeasurable. One of the key achievements of his time at DPIA was the development of the refugee doctor scheme, and you helped develop that scheme. The success of the project has been to aid over 200 refugee doctors from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan into work within our NHS.
I'm sure that you'd want to say a heartfelt 'diolch' to Aled for his hard work, and I wonder if a fitting tribute to that hard work and the hard work of the DPIA would be to develop the award scheme to encompass other professional refugees and asylum seekers. Since the last time I talked to you about this topic, could you update us on any progress there has been to develop the scheme in the areas of dentistry, midwifery and in nursing? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Can I join you in praise of Aled Edwards? The fantastic Aled Edwards, who, when I was the first health Minister, he came to me and said, 'Can we do something—?' This was nearly 25 years ago: 'Can we do something in terms of refugee doctors?' and he managed to develop a scheme involving higher education, language, the British Medical Association, the General Medical Council—all involved. So, all over Wales in the health service, there are refugee doctors who've come through that award scheme.
He was such a strong supporter of devolution. He wanted to make it work and use what powers we had, but through Displaced People in Action, he has enabled professionals. And, of course, this is very relevant to our Syrian, Afghan and Ukrainian guests, and the other professions. So, I'll come back to you with an update on that scheme.

I thank the Minister.

7. Legislative Consent Motion on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill

Item 7 this afternoon is the LCM on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill, and I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM8290 Jane Hutt
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful for the work of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the Equality and Social Justice Committee on this matter and for the reports that they've published. I'm pleased that majorities on both committees broadly agreed with the position that the Government set out in its legislative consent memorandum. And I also note, and have already responded, to the recommendations of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.
Deputy Llywydd, we know that catcalling, aggressively blocking someone's path, intimidating them and other sex-based harassment in public is a significant problem that impacts very badly on the physical and mental health of many people in Wales. It can negatively impact a person's well-being and the fear of such harassment can lead to adverse impacts on the well-being of a wider group of people. As women and girls are disproportionately the victims of this form of harassment, this can further entrench issues of inequality.
In May 2022, the Office for National Statistics found that 82 per cent of women felt unsafe walking alone after dark in a park or other open space. One in two women aged between 16 and 34 experienced at least one form of harassment in the previous 12 months, with 38 per cent of women aged between 16 and 34 having experienced catcalls, whistles, unwanted sexual comments, jokes, and 25 per cent having felt that they were being followed. People who reported feeling unsafe during the day and after dark had altered their behaviours as a result. To change behaviours, we know that we must confront those committing the abuse; we must support survivors; we must change the culture of misogyny and harassment that feeds the abuse.So, my officials did explore very carefully the option of the Welsh Government bringing forward its own Bill, but it became clear that this would not have been a timely option in this case. And our principles provide that there are circumstances in which it may be sensible and advantageous to seek provision for Wales, which would be within the Senedd’s legislative competence within UK parliamentary Bills with the consent of the Senedd of course.
This is a single-use Bill, in line with our programme for government and our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy. And therefore, our recommendation to consent to this Bill is entirely consistent with those principles in order to ensure that a serious issue is addressed as timely as possible. Therefore, it is right for Wales to be included in this legislation so that people in Wales are not left in a position where they could be considered less safe from the risks of street and public sex-based harassment.However, I also agree with the concerns that have been raised around the commencement of this Bill not being given to Welsh Ministers by the UK Government. The timing of the engagement by UK Government on this Bill was unacceptable, which made attempts to secure commencement powers in Wales extremely difficult, worsened by the limited opportunity to amend the legislation owing to parliamentary processes around private Members’ Bills.
Due to the importance of the issue and not wanting women and girls in Wales to be less safe than in England, we eventually agreed to a memorandum of understanding around commencement of the relevant provisions. This has now been finalised and published. However, Members can rest assured that I also made our position clear and affirmed that this was not to be regarded as a precedent for future Bills. Aside from this issue, the LCM committee reports make clear why this Senedd should support the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill. At its core, the Bill will help ensure the safety of women and girls in Wales, which is a priority for the Welsh Government. I therefore call upon Members of the Senedd to give their consent to this motion. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. My committee reported on the legislative consent memorandum on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill last week. We asked the Minister to clarify a number of issues before this afternoon’s debate and I thank the Minister for her response yesterday afternoon.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Llywydd, our report focuses on three issues: the Welsh Government’s approach to legislating; the provisions in the Bill that we consider require the Senedd’s consent; and the memorandum of understanding that the Welsh Government has signed with the UK Government on the exercise of the commencement power.
Firstly, the Welsh Government’s own programme for government makes a commitment to,
'Strengthen the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Strategy to include a focus on violence against women in the street and workplace as well as the home.'
That's in the Welsh Government's own programme for government. So, on that basis, we remain unclear as a committee as to why the Welsh Government has not brought forward its own legislation on this matter, given this clear commitment. Let me expand a little bit.
The Welsh Government is aware of our view that, where new legislative opportunities are identified by both the Welsh Government and the UK Government, there is a different way forward: our respective Parliaments could legislate, but in parallel and in co-ordination. So, recommendation 1 in our report asked the Minister to clarify why the Welsh Government has not brought forward its own Bill to create this new offence. This doesn't go to the matter of the policy of the Bill, but it's the process of creating the Bill. The Minister told us that the officials explored the option of the Welsh Government bringing forward its own Bill, but, as she has just explained, that it would not have been a timely option and it would have had detrimental impacts on the delivery of other Bills. So, we thank the Minister for that further response.
Regarding which provisions in the Bill require the Senedd's consent, we agree that the clauses identified in the memorandum require the consent of the Senedd. However, we believe the Senedd's consent should be sought for the whole of clause 4 of the Bill, and not just two subsections within it.
Now, finally, as the Minister has said, the Welsh Government has entered into a memorandum of understanding with the UK Government on the exercise of the commencement power in the Bill. It was signed on 1 June and sent to us on 2 June. Given that the Welsh Government has entered into an agreement with the UK Government on a Bill that is the subject of the legislative consent process, we do welcome the Minister's commitment to provide the Senedd with a copy of that agreement before Members of the Senedd are asked to make a decision on whether to grant legislative consent.
In recommendation No. 2, we asked the Minister to confirm if the Welsh Government sought a power on the face of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to commence clauses 1 and 3 of the Bill as they apply in Wales before agreeing to enter into an MOU with the UK Government, and the Minister—we're grateful—has confirmed to us that she did indeed write to the UK Government on three occasions to strongly advocate for a power on the face of the Bill for Welsh Ministers—our Welsh Ministers—to commence the relevant provisions here in Wales, but the request was refused, which is disappointing.
In recommendation 3, we asked the Minister to confirm if any discussions have taken place and/or what is the Welsh Government's understanding of what is meant by a 'reasonable time', which appears in the terms of the MOU. The Minister has replied, saying that this would be case specific, depending on individual circumstances, and she does not consider it will give rise to any issues.
So, should the Welsh Ministers propose an alternative commencement date to the one proposed by the Secretary of State, in recommendation 4 we asked the Minister to confirm how a formal dispute resolution process will be engaged should the Welsh Government and the UK Government officials be unable to agree a suitable commencement date. The Minister set out in her response what is set out in the MOU, that officials will seek to agree a date, and we understand that. Our recommendation sought to find out what happens if officials cannot find that compromise position—so, Minister, I don't know whether you can reflect a bit further on that in your closing remarks.
Finally, in recommendation 5, Llywydd, we asked the Minister to explain what action the Welsh Government will take should the Secretary of State decide not to propose a commencement date for clauses 1 and 3 of the Bill. The Minister told us that, if the Bill is not commenced, you will explore further options to legislate for a similar offence in Wales, because sexual harassment in public is indeed one of the priorities of this Government in the programme for government. So, again, Minister, given that the Welsh Government has no control over the commencement of something that is a key priority, perhaps again you could reflect a little on the approach that you've taken in this legislation to that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. We considered this proposal on 15 May, and we think that the legislation is a practical and efficient opportunity to ensure equal protection from sex-based harassment in public in Wales, given that there is no comparable Senedd Bill planned in the short or medium term, and therefore we felt it was important to support this, as this is a significant issue. It's something that's come up when we've investigated the specific needs of migrant women, who may be subject to exploitation and harassment, and indeed be in a controlling relationship. We have a continuing interest in how we prevent gender-based violence, and we would be keen to know how the new criminal offence will support our non-legislative efforts to deal with sexual harassment in public places, which is a commitment in the Welsh Government's programme for government.
So, one of our Members expressed concern about the principle of a UK Government Bill enacting such legislation, rather than it being generated in Wales, but I think that most of us were strongly of the view that we need to seize the moment for what is a useful Bill to provide protection to people who may otherwise be harassed in public.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this legislative consent memorandum today. As Welsh Conservatives, we support this LCM because we need to do as much as we can to ensure that we protect people from sex-based harassment in public. I and my group support any measures to strengthen the law in this area to ensure that those perpetrators are brought to justice. There is no place in society for any violence against women or anybody in our place of work, or in public, or anywhere in this country.
We recognise that this is a key area of work for the Welsh Government, as we know that it is a programme for government commitment for you. However, we are disappointed that this hasn’t come forward as Welsh Government legislation, because we think it’s very important here that laws are made in the Senedd for Welsh people, and this is a devolved area. We think on these benches that, if we had brought this forward as a Welsh Government Bill, it would have given far more opportunity for those organisations to feed into this, and for Senedd Members here to scrutinise this properly. I do hear your point, Minister, where you said about time and risk to other Bills, but I don’t really accept that, because the Welsh Government have brought forward other Bills through this Senedd on the expedited process, which could have speeded this up to make sure that we did this in parallel with the UK Government.
So, we do support this in principle, but I’d actually like to know what exactly the Welsh Government is going to do in the future to bring forward Welsh legislation in this area, because I think that there is wide-ranging support for a Bill like this, developed in the Senedd, to eradicate sex-based harassment here in Wales, and I think that we should have a Bill on this statute book, made here in the Senedd.

Sioned Williams MS: Violence against women is endemic in England and Wales and worldwide. It's worth repeating the shameful, frightening figures at every opportunity, namely that one in three of all women will experience gender-based violence, and 71 per cent of women in the UK have experienced harassment in public, which rises to 86 per cent among women aged between 18 and 24 years of age—86 per cent. Twenty-nine women sit in this Chamber. That means that, statistically speaking, 20 of us have experienced harassment, or will experience harassment, in a public place, based on our gender.
In their response to the consultation on the Bill, Welsh Women’s Aid drew attention to the huge increase in calls related to harassment and stalking to the Live Fear Free helpline—an increase of 229 per cent between January 2021 and June 2022. The scale of the problem is clear, too, in the findings of their 'No Grey Area' report, which stated that four out of five women in Wales have experienced sexual harassment at work, the majority of them having experienced multiple instances of sexual harassment by multiple perpetrators.
In the meeting that I chaired today of the cross-party group on violence against women and children, we heard again about the scale of the problem of sexual harassment in the workplace and on the way to and from work. The term ‘epidemic’ was used to describe the situation. So, it's a huge, major issue, and we must do more to tackle it in Wales. But this legislation is not likely to do this effectively. The most eminent experts in the sector focused on preventing gender-based violence are agreed on this. The justice system is broken to such an extent, according to the End Violence Against Women Coalition, that it will be unable to implement any new legislation. Plan International and Our Streets Now underline that this Bill does not tackle and close the loopholes in the law in terms of sexual harassment in public, and, in omitting unwelcome sexual behaviour from this piece of legislation, there is a danger that other kinds of sexual harassment in public connected to the crime will also be omitted.
Welsh Women’s Aid also highlight that tackling gender-based violence, rather than the element of sex exclusively, should be the focus here, emphasising that sexual harassment in public doesn’t solely happen because of someone’s sex. And this is an important point. Although women suffer disproportionate levels of sexual harassment in public, sexual harassment happens to people as a means of striking fear into them and as a statement of power and control, and that can be for reasons or factors that are in addition to or other than their sex. For example, the Trades Union Congressundertook the first major survey of sexual harassment among LGBT+ people in the workplace, and found that 68 per cent of LGBT+ people had experienced sexual harassment at work. Welsh Women’s Aid therefore believe that these cases would be unlikely to be encompassed by this legislative framework, and Plaid Cymru supports their view that we must tackle all kinds of sexual violence fairly and on the basis of equality, and that legislation should be consistent across all kinds of sexual violence. We also share concern that there is no recognition in the Bill of the harassment faced by survivors of sexual exploitation and harm via the sex industry—violence that often occurs in public places such as cars, public parks and back streets.
Of course, the fundamental aims of the Bill, namely trying to tackle behaviour that causes such harm and distress, such trauma and risk to thousands upon thousands of women, are to be welcomed. But Plaid Cymru believes that we must take the responsibility and the powers that we need to create legislation that is fit for purpose, a justice system that enables change, and a fairer and more equitable system that focuses on tackling the fundamental causes of crime early on, focusing on prevention and early intervention, and making misogyny a hate crime.
Plaid Cymru will not be supporting the motion as a matter of principle. In contrast to the other parties in this Chamber, we believe that the Welsh Parliament should legislate for the people of Wales. But, for those of you who disagree with this stance, I encourage you to follow our example by refusing our consent for this Bill for the reasons that I have outlined, which have come from experts in the field.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd—thank you to you all for raising such important points in this debate. And in fact, isn't it important that we've got the opportunity to debate this LCM? It's again highlighted the scale of the problem, and it is essential that the level of public harassment and abuse experienced by women and girls is understood, and the harm caused properly recognised. I gave you all the statistics; we've heard again the impact of this on the lives of girls and women. And also, just to reassure Members, our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy is now extended to looking at violence and sexual harassment in the workplace. We have a work stream that is led by Shavanah Taj, alongside someone from the police authority. We also have a work stream on tackling violence in public places, as well as a work stream working with survivors.
So, many of the points have been raised in terms of what we're continuing to do to work with our specialist services to raise awareness of the inequality and safety issues faced by women and girls, to end all forms of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence for all the people of Wales, working with our partners. But we do see that this legislative opportunity could provide just one further tool in the fight to change behaviour and empower survivors, again, to ensure that we improve practice and instill confidence in survivors to report incidents of abuse and violence when they occur, to hold those who abuse to account.
We'll take on board all of the points that have been raised by the Equality and Social Justice Committee. They will be fed into our revised strategy and the work streams. And also, I have accepted all the recommendations from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. And I think it was important that I did accept all of those recommendations, and I know that there are many questions that we then need to take forward in terms of the points that have been raised. And I will share a copy of the memorandum of understanding, and recognise that, as I said, this is in no way giving any kind of precedent to handling this in terms of the way forward.
We did explore the option of bringing forward our own Bill,but it wasn't possible for the reasons that I've mentioned. And it goes back to the fact that we do need to provide the same protection in Wales as would be offered to women in England. That's the point. That is why we've made this decision, because we do not want women and girls to be left out in terms of this option, in terms of protection. But I do take into account the points that are being made about learning from our specialist providers and our cross-party group today, of course, in terms of understanding these issues. But I want to ensure that the same protection is offered, and that's why I ask Members to support this LCM and not opt out of this legislative opportunity.
So, we hope the Bill will achieve this tangible and positive impact for women and girls as well as gender-diverse people, to help change outdated attitudes and show that public sex-based harassment will not be tolerated. And if I can assure Members across this Chamber that if, for any reason, a Bill is not commenced—and we have had issues about the commencement, as I outlined in my opening remarks—I will explore further options to legislate in Wales. But I ask Members to give consent to this Bill to improve protection for women and girls and diverse people in Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Report Stage amendments to the Agriculture (Wales) Bill

We move now to item 8, the motion to vary the order of consideration for Report Stage amendments to the Agriculture (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for rural affairs to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM8288 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Agriculture (Wales) Bill at Report Stage in the following order:
a) Sections 1-34;
b) Schedule 1;
c) Section 35;
d) Sections 37-44;
e) Section 36;
f) Sections 46-48;
g) Section 45;
h) Sections 49-55;
i) Schedule 2;
j) Schedule 3;
k) Sections 56-57;
l) Long title.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

The motion is formally moved. I have no speakers to the item. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Voting Time

Which brings us to voting time. There is a single vote this afternoon, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to that vote. And that vote is on the legislative consent motion on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions, 11 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7. LCM on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 41, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today and concludes our business. Thank you, all, very much.

The meeting ended at 17:49.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Sam Rowlands: Will the First Minister make a statement on the role of local democracy in determining local development plans?

Mark Drakeford: Local democracy is a fundamental part of determining local development plans. Development plans are prepared within a statutory framework and all local democratic bodies have a duty to act within the law.

Samuel Kurtz: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve men’s health in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire?

Mark Drakeford: There is a wide range of Welsh Government activities designed to improve the mental and physical health of men across Wales, including in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. These include action to treat conditions such as prostate cancer, as well as implementation of our 'Together for Mental Health' strategy.